Jon WorthAug 15, 2023

Missing the point

Yes taxation rates matter. But France-Spain and France-Belgium trains are expensive to take *because the capacity is too low*

If you reduce ticket prices on those routes you WON’T TRANSPORT MORE PEOPLE. Just different people. As the trains are full anyway

So, Clement Beaune, how are you going to get more TGVs to Barcelona?

https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/08/10/france-is-raising-taxes-on-flights-to-pay-for-trains-should-other-european-countries-do-th

Why are flights cheaper than trains in Europe?

Train travel is often more expensive than flying. Could taxing aviation to invest in the rail industry help change that?

euronews
Show threadJon Worth
And if your response is “ah but rail firms will add more capacity”, I’d point you to Thalys that hasn’t upped capacity in 2 decades despite rising demand and sky high prices. And SNCF that runs just 2 TGVs to Barcelona a day. Both easy to solve, both not done.
Aug 15, 2023 at 7:30amWeb
Show threadjakob.pxiAug 15, 2023
@jon This! Yet I remain marginally hopeful that public pressure can occasionally work: the budget for traditional low income (?) tourism SNCF night trains to the south of France got reinstated over uproar. Last year we even enjoyed new cars with comfy beds. But it did get pricey. Probably need EU level pressure for more capacity, but current German government a major detriment there. Sigh.
Show threadJon WorthAug 15, 2023
@jakob That was a job retention effort for a SNCF works in Perigeux to renovate those vehicles. But yes, public pressure made it happen - and that’s welcome.
Show threadTristram GräbenerAug 15, 2023
@jon appart from cross-border rail, do you know how other countries finance their infrastructure ?
French HSL are pretty well used close to max capacity, track fares are of the most expensive in Europe, yet apparently the network operator struggles, and SNCF barely breaks even on those lines.
Could EU-laws allow to finance tracks solely by the state (charging train operators only for saturation at specific times)
Show threadJon WorthAug 15, 2023

@tristramg Italy pretty much did just that. So yes that’s possible.

But I’d argue France’s HSLs are inefficiently used. You’ve got a morning and afternoon peak with saturation, but big gaps rest of the day. Also don’t underestimate station access charges too - that strongly mitigate against running only half full trains.

Show threadColm Ó DonnchadhaAug 15, 2023
@tristramg @jon if french HSL were used close to max capacity, there'd be more than 2 trains per day through the Perthus tunnel...
Show threadJon WorthAug 15, 2023
@ColmDonoghue @tristramg Sure. But I hear all the time LGV Sud Est is at the limit. I’m not sure even that is - for more than a few hours a day anyway!
Show threadTristram GräbenerAug 15, 2023

@ColmDonoghue @jon “appart from cross-border” ;) When Clément Beaune talks about train prices, it’s mostly about domestic flights.

But the questions still holds for the Perthus. If the track charges just for the tunnel where 200€ instead of 2200, maybe SNCF would push the trains to Perpignan a bit further. But who would pay then?

https://www.lfpperthus.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/declaracion-de-red-2023.pdf

Show threadJon WorthAug 15, 2023
@tristramg @ColmDonoghue well except SNCF can’t now, as it sent half its Spain compatible Euroduplex to Spain for OUIGO and stripped out the French signalling. So given SNCF has literally 6 suitable TGVs, I’m not sure they can do more than 3 a day. Ok, better than 2, but still… And even at that cost they could run 4 or 5 profitably in summer.
Show threadJon WorthAug 15, 2023
@tristramg and more generally - I’d imagine SNCF Réseau makes a borderline profit out of the LGVs. But it will make a massive loss on Lignes Classiques - that have few TERs and little freight. So the LGV charges will cross subsidise that dead weight.
Show threadQuixoticgeekAug 15, 2023
@jon I still don't understand why these rail cos are so short sighted. Why they run such a limited service. Esp on the Thalys routes. Those are clearly running at capacity, and have been for a while. But not even a modest change of a couple of extra trains a day. Or running double formations. Nothing. It makes no sense to me.
Show threadJon WorthAug 15, 2023
@quixoticgeek it’s hard work to change something. Why do hard work? (Or is that too cynical?)
Show threadQuixoticgeekAug 15, 2023
@jon well that was my first guess. But it felt... Obvious...
Show threadOskar im KellerAug 15, 2023

@jon

Travelled to South of France in May. Started in Aachen, took ICE to Brussels, then caught direct TGV to Montpellier. Great train, changing in Brussels very convenient. But only runs once a day.

Montpellier Sud de France is a weird super modern station that only comes to life 2-3 times a day when the main trains arrive or leave. If you want to change to other trains (TER etc) to continue travel, you need to change to the main train station. There is no direct bus, taxi takes 30 minutes.

Show threadJon WorthAug 15, 2023
@OskarImKeller Right. A tram line is planned to Montpellier sdF but hasn't been built yet. But stations like that are typical in France - assumption is everyone taking the train ALSO has a car (or access to one).
Show threadOskar im KellerAug 15, 2023

@jon

All the big car rental companies are present at SdF. However, if you pick up a car there and want to return it to another station, they charge substantial extra fees (IIRC it was around 50 €). The station is surrounded by huge parking lots - sealed asphalt with little shade.

There is the occasional navette shuttle that gets you to the closest tram stop. The journey involves walking (with luggage) across some big square and takes at least an hour I calculated. We went for the taxi.

Show threadOskar im KellerAug 15, 2023

@jon

In Scandinavia (at least when I was still travelling there regularly) a bus service would be running between the two stations that would coincide with the arrival and departure of the main TGV services at SdF. It would cost a reasonable amoun of money, and be a reliable way of getting there and back, with space for people's luggage. Does France have laws against that?

Show threadJon WorthAug 15, 2023
@OskarImKeller no law against it. Just attitude.
Show threadSic Transit PHLAug 16, 2023
@jon How does Renfe's new BCN-Lyon service factor into all of this? Obviously not much right now (are they still only at 1 train per day?), but Renfe, despite their bad record on the subject MAD-BCN, is expressing interest in adding frequencies BCN-Lyon, and eventually extending their trains Part Dieu-GdL. Which is significantly more interest than SNCF has offered lately.
Show threadJon WorthAug 16, 2023

@SicTransitPHL at the moment Renfe + SNCF are *separately* running the same number of trains FR-ES they used to when collaborating. So so far 🤷‍♂️

Medium term Renfe does See opportunities in France though - and its Series 106 AVE ought to be approved for France. So medium term there’s a little hope.

Show threadDiegoAug 16, 2023
@jon @SicTransitPHL Also nice that Marseille-Madrid is back, even if 1 train per day is way too little. And I've never seen such a bad ticket purchasing website as Renfe's, I had to book through Trainline.
Show threadDiegoAug 16, 2023

@jon @SicTransitPHL Renfe first claimed there were no trains corresponding to my request, then wanted to sell me a 290€ one way fare (2 months in advance!). Trainline sold me a seat in the same train for 37€.

No clue how Renfe is so incompetent at the most basic things.

Show threadJon WorthAug 16, 2023
@DiegoBeghin @SicTransitPHL Spain is pretty much the only country I can solidly recommend using Trainline 🙂
Show threadPatriceAug 16, 2023

@jon True. But it can happen. Austrian ÖBB has been adding more trains and is still increasing capacity as demand has grown.
All a matter of will

I think, an important issue has been the privatization of the rail network in the last few decades.

Show threadJon WorthAug 16, 2023
@patrice ÖBB is ace. I wish others would follow their approach!
Show threadAGTMADCAT 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇺🇦🇹🇼🇵🇸Aug 16, 2023
@jon In theory this is what open access regulations are supposed to help solve - these underserved routes are clearly popular and profitable, so a private company should be able to lease some trainsets and station slots and get a service going.
Show threadJon WorthAug 16, 2023
@AGTMADCAT In theory. But if there are no suitable trains to lease (and generally there are not), then what?
Show threadAGTMADCAT 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇺🇦🇹🇼🇵🇸Aug 16, 2023
@jon then I guess you go to Alstom or Hitachi or Siemens or Talgo or whomever and work something out with their financing department, and you get in line for new stock. Queues are a couple of years but not too bad.
Show threadJon WorthAug 16, 2023

@AGTMADCAT you know that cracking this problem is part of my work, right?

The issue is scale. There’s no leasing market for passenger stock. The operators who’d lease passenger stock are small. So a leasing company has never dared go to Alstom or Siemens (or more likely FPS in Poland or Astra in Romania) and ordered 300 carriages.

Show threadAGTMADCAT 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇺🇦🇹🇼🇵🇸Aug 16, 2023

@jon I did not! That's super cool.

I was making assumptions that the broader European rolling stock market had some parallels with the UK market, which for all the faults of franchising (and there are many), seems to have created a norm of leasing, with leasing companies seeming to always have something knocking around.

I'm thinking in particular of Grand Central in the UK, which started off very small and still only has 50 carriages. Obviously old high speed stock is going to be thinner on the ground, but I'd think that a cheap 200kph service would probably still draw customers.