Jon WorthAug 15, 2023

Missing the point

Yes taxation rates matter. But France-Spain and France-Belgium trains are expensive to take *because the capacity is too low*

If you reduce ticket prices on those routes you WON’T TRANSPORT MORE PEOPLE. Just different people. As the trains are full anyway

So, Clement Beaune, how are you going to get more TGVs to Barcelona?

https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/08/10/france-is-raising-taxes-on-flights-to-pay-for-trains-should-other-european-countries-do-th

Why are flights cheaper than trains in Europe?

Train travel is often more expensive than flying. Could taxing aviation to invest in the rail industry help change that?

euronews
Show threadJon WorthAug 15, 2023
And if your response is “ah but rail firms will add more capacity”, I’d point you to Thalys that hasn’t upped capacity in 2 decades despite rising demand and sky high prices. And SNCF that runs just 2 TGVs to Barcelona a day. Both easy to solve, both not done.
Show threadTristram Gräbener
@jon appart from cross-border rail, do you know how other countries finance their infrastructure ?
French HSL are pretty well used close to max capacity, track fares are of the most expensive in Europe, yet apparently the network operator struggles, and SNCF barely breaks even on those lines.
Could EU-laws allow to finance tracks solely by the state (charging train operators only for saturation at specific times)
Aug 15, 2023 at 8:05amWeb
Show threadJon WorthAug 15, 2023

@tristramg Italy pretty much did just that. So yes that’s possible.

But I’d argue France’s HSLs are inefficiently used. You’ve got a morning and afternoon peak with saturation, but big gaps rest of the day. Also don’t underestimate station access charges too - that strongly mitigate against running only half full trains.

Show threadColm Ó DonnchadhaAug 15, 2023
@tristramg @jon if french HSL were used close to max capacity, there'd be more than 2 trains per day through the Perthus tunnel...
Show threadJon WorthAug 15, 2023
@ColmDonoghue @tristramg Sure. But I hear all the time LGV Sud Est is at the limit. I’m not sure even that is - for more than a few hours a day anyway!
Show threadTristram GräbenerAug 15, 2023

@ColmDonoghue @jon “appart from cross-border” ;) When Clément Beaune talks about train prices, it’s mostly about domestic flights.

But the questions still holds for the Perthus. If the track charges just for the tunnel where 200€ instead of 2200, maybe SNCF would push the trains to Perpignan a bit further. But who would pay then?

https://www.lfpperthus.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/declaracion-de-red-2023.pdf

Show threadJon WorthAug 15, 2023
@tristramg @ColmDonoghue well except SNCF can’t now, as it sent half its Spain compatible Euroduplex to Spain for OUIGO and stripped out the French signalling. So given SNCF has literally 6 suitable TGVs, I’m not sure they can do more than 3 a day. Ok, better than 2, but still… And even at that cost they could run 4 or 5 profitably in summer.
Show threadJon WorthAug 15, 2023
@tristramg and more generally - I’d imagine SNCF Réseau makes a borderline profit out of the LGVs. But it will make a massive loss on Lignes Classiques - that have few TERs and little freight. So the LGV charges will cross subsidise that dead weight.