HeavenlyPossumAug 3, 2023

Capitalism must always grow. It can never stop.

Capitalists must always seek to maximize differential profits—they have to collect *more* profits than their competitors.

Because you can reinvest those profits in buying up more revenue generating assets, you can expand your business and grab more market share. Or, like when Microsoft bought Nokia to grab the patents Nokia held, you can invest in blocking your competitors from expanding.

If your share of the market falls so far that you can’t make payroll or pay your creditors, you go out of business. Your capital is seized and sold off, and you become just another worker, subject to the whims and commands of capital owners.

So capital owners in competitive markets must always try to grow at a rate faster than their competitors. If they stop, if they take a break, if the global ecosystem collapses, then so does capitalism.

Show threadAlexander_Anotherskip_DavisAug 3, 2023
@HeavenlyPossum Cute, but no.
Show threadHeavenlyPossumAug 3, 2023

@Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis

Wow thanks

Show threadAlexander_Anotherskip_DavisAug 3, 2023
@HeavenlyPossum Sure, i mean if you can cite research to prove your point I'll look at it but really. its a pretty poor theory that only has minimal observational support. If you can prove it I'll happily use it to smush other tweets I have seen in my thread today so win-win.
Show threadHeavenlyPossumAug 3, 2023

@Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis

I’m trying and failing to figure out what it is you’re trying to accomplish here

Show threadPyperkubAug 3, 2023
@HeavenlyPossum @Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis IMHO. mostly that you are conflating monopolists with capitalists and what passes for capitalism today is NOT capitalism, it is the opposite of what Adam Smith meant by free markets in capital and labor, and most your issues appear to be with what monopolists are doing to corrupt free markets and perform rent-seeking. Capitalism with good rules and referees is what's needed, but both have been corrupted by monopolists (and not for the first time).
Show threadPyperkubAug 3, 2023
@HeavenlyPossum @Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis See @pluralistic 's examination of Private Equity and the Carried Interest Loophole: https://pluralistic.net/2021/04/29/writers-must-be-paid/#carried-interest
Pluralistic: 29 Apr 2021 – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow

Show threadPyperkubAug 3, 2023
@HeavenlyPossum @Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis @pluralistic And then realize even **THAT** scam isn't enough, and needs more scams: https://pluralistic.net/2023/07/20/continuation-fraud/
Pluralistic: Private equity ghouls have a new way to steal from their investors (20 July 2023) – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow

Show threadHeavenlyPossumAug 4, 2023

@pluralistic @[email protected] @pyperkub

Why would the existence of “scams” be antithetical to profit-seeking in competitive markets by capital owners?

Show threadPyperkubAug 4, 2023
@HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic See above- "Capitalism with good rules and referees is what's needed"
Show threadHeavenlyPossumAug 4, 2023

@pyperkub @pluralistic

Capitalism *is* the result of rules—it is inescapably the product of state violence and cannot exist without massive state interference. This *is* capitalism acting according to the rules; there is no “good” capitalism but only degrees of violence and exploitation.

Show threadPyperkubAug 4, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic and socialism/communism isn't?

Hmmm... might need to come up with some way to differentiate here...

Show threadRDAug 5, 2023

@pyperkub @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic

It's quite simple really: if it involves a state, it's not socialism or communism.

If it involves a state existing from, let's say around 1900 or so on, it's either a private capitalist state (like the US, or even "Nordic Socialist" states) or state capitalism (like USSR, China, Cuba, DPRK, Vietnam, etc).

Hope this is helpful.

Show threadPyperkubAug 7, 2023
@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic From Britannica - you are still conflating "monopoly/oligopoly" with "capitalism". The point being that what we have is NOT a free market based economy (Defn of Capitalism here), based on market principles, but rather an oligopoly based on monopolistic principles. That is what #enshittification is all about - Rent Seeking through Monopoly.
Show threadPKMKIIAug 7, 2023
@pyperkub @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic An absolute free market economy can be talked about in the abstract but can’t exist in the real world as there’s always state involvement due to the state being the one that enforces private property claims. The current oligarchy/#enshittification regime is the natural result of the capitalist class using economic pressure on the state to protect its profits.
Show threadPyperkub
@PKMKII @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic People enforce private property claims too. Ever seen a "No Trespassing" Sign, or one that says "Trespassers will be shot" - that ain't the State. You're still describing market capture and regulatory capture by monopolists, not capitalism, and the KEY takeaway is that part of Good Government and Communities is required to prevent Capitalism from all of the above. We're failing at that, but it's not because teh capitalism is bad.
Aug 7, 2023 at 7:05pmWeb
Show threadPyperkubAug 7, 2023
@PKMKII @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic And this is true in Socialist and Communist Countries as well. It's just Power which gets monopolized w/o good government/governance. The fact is that market economics play out in all forms of government. Just with different currencies.
Show threadHeavenlyPossumAug 7, 2023

@pyperkub @PKMKII @pluralistic @RD4Anarchy

There are no socialist or communist countries, in the meaningful sense of workers actually owning the means of production they build and operate.

Show threadHeavenlyPossumAug 7, 2023

@RD4Anarchy @PKMKII @pluralistic @pyperkub

“No trespassing” does not signify private ownership in the sense of capital. A capitalist’s property would be worthless as capital if the capitalist excluded people from it; who else would the capitalist collect rents from at gunpoint?

Show threadPyperkubAug 7, 2023
@HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @PKMKII @pluralistic So, Farmers who own their land aren't capitalists? Their land isn't their property, no matter who is enforcing their perceived "right" to their property? I am *literally* not buying this ;)
Show threadHeavenlyPossumAug 7, 2023

@RD4Anarchy @pluralistic @pyperkub @PKMKII

Farmers are not capitalists. Some capitalists own farms on which farmers engage in productive activity, generating revenue that they had over to their owner in exchange for a fraction of it back as wages.

Show threadHeavenlyPossumAug 7, 2023

@pyperkub @pluralistic @RD4Anarchy @PKMKII

“Private” property in the sense of capitalism isn’t just a synonym for “stuff you own.” Property takes many forms—things we own personally through use and occupancy, like our homes and our toothbrushes, or maybe things we own in common, like a home you share with your family and from which none of you can exclude the other.

“Private” property in the capitalist sense refers to ownership of someone else’s productive activity—their farm, or their business, or their home, which you own and can forcibly exclude them, which allows you to collect a rent.

Show threadPyperkubAug 7, 2023
@HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic @RD4Anarchy @PKMKII you can do this without a STATE tho. See the Drug Cartels/Orgainized Crime, neither of which gives a hoot about whether the country or countries they operate in is socialist/communist/feudal/capitalist etc.
Show threadRDAug 7, 2023

@pyperkub @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic @PKMKII

Those only exist because of state. They're like the other side of the same coin.

Where's your drug cartel if drugs aren't made illegal by the state?

There is a clue in the name "organized crime", it's "crime" because the state made it illegal.

Show threadHeavenlyPossumAug 7, 2023

@PKMKII @pyperkub @RD4Anarchy @pluralistic

To add to your reading list, if you haven’t read it already, I highly recommend Charles Tilly’s “War Making and State Making as Organized Crime.” I bet you can catch the drift from the title.

Show threadHeavenlyPossumAug 7, 2023

@PKMKII @pluralistic @RD4Anarchy @pyperkub

Organized crime operates in precisely the same manner as the state in this regard. You’re describing the same phenomenon under two different names, depending on how “legitimate” we’d like to pretend each organization is.

In reality, no non-state society ever voluntarily adopted anything like capitalism’s mode of private property.

Show threadRDAug 7, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic @pyperkub @PKMKII

A farmer owning their land doesn't make them capitalist, even if such ownership isn't really legitimate in an ideal sense.

If they work the land themselves and sell some of the product that doesn't make them capitalists either.

Show threadHeavenlyPossumAug 7, 2023

@PKMKII @pyperkub @RD4Anarchy @pluralistic

Working their own land sort of disqualifies them from the status of capitalist.

Show threadRDAug 7, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @PKMKII @pyperkub @pluralistic

Are you sure? Even if they stash away a few turnips? ThAtS cApItAl!!1!! haha, Gotcha!

Show threadRDAug 7, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @PKMKII @pyperkub @pluralistic

I'll get my coat...

Show threadPyperkubAug 7, 2023
@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @PKMKII @pluralistic (is it made from turnips?) ;)
Show threadforesterrAug 7, 2023

@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @PKMKII @pyperkub @pluralistic a couple turnips is fine, but I draw the line at turnip futures.

On a more serious note, that's pretty close to what my thinking eventually converged to - you are free to own anything, including means of production (your home, farming land, tools of your craft, etc.), as long as you, personally, are using them for a significant fraction of your time (which probably means they are personal property anyway and we can toss the whole concept of "private" one on the trash heap of history).

As soon as someone starts paying you for being able to use what you own, whether directly or through expropriated labor value, you are a capitalist (yes, that one rentable flat that you inherited from your grandma makes you a capitalist and the revolution won't spare you :P )

Show threadRDAug 7, 2023

@pyperkub @HeavenlyPossum @PKMKII @pluralistic

Reality can be confusing when your mind has been infected by capital's narrative, which causes people to see everything as capital.

But capital isn't really stuff, it's a social relationship of command, it's power. It's the control of other people's labor.

Show threadHeavenlyPossumAug 7, 2023

@PKMKII @RD4Anarchy @pyperkub @pluralistic

I see this so often: people are taught that a) capitalism is just trucking and bartering and trading, it’s free enterprise and economic liberty, and also b) we live under capitalism.

And some people are clever enough to recognize that what they were taught about (a) doesn’t look anything like the lived reality of (b).

And one possible solution to this contradiction is to conclude that we were lied to about capitalism.

Unfortunately, a lot of people cling to the idea that (a) is true and hence need excuses for the contradictions of (b). It’s those darn governments interfering with their minimum wages and cronyism and prohibitions on hunting humans for sport.

What we need desperately is for people to look critically at what capitalism actually is, because the idea of “voluntary production and free trade” part is utterly incompatible with the “private ownership of means of production” part, the part that is the actual product of government violence.

Show threadalravenAug 8, 2023
@HeavenlyPossum @PKMKII @RD4Anarchy @pyperkub @pluralistic the whole starting point of critical theory/radical critique (whether that is anarchist, communist, marxist, etc, or a mix) is this! Namely that modern social relations (incl. property and production relations, but you can include various structures of domination/violence) aren't the transparent and idyllic tale of harmony (e.g. that everyone gets "what they earn", that everyone is equal in the moment of exchange/market, etc) and progress (Steven Pinker lol) that hegemonic ideology/education/discourse/common sense tells us. It needs to be deconstructed/decyphered to unearth the actual social relations (and violence, exploitation, mafia-like hostage situations in the market, institutionalised violence e.g. police/borders/etc, )...