Mastodawn

HeavenlyPossum Aug 3, 2023

Capitalism must always grow. It can never stop.

Capitalists must always seek to maximize differential profits—they have to collect *more* profits than their competitors.

Because you can reinvest those profits in buying up more revenue generating assets, you can expand your business and grab more market share. Or, like when Microsoft bought Nokia to grab the patents Nokia held, you can invest in blocking your competitors from expanding.

If your share of the market falls so far that you can’t make payroll or pay your creditors, you go out of business. Your capital is seized and sold off, and you become just another worker, subject to the whims and commands of capital owners.

So capital owners in competitive markets must always try to grow at a rate faster than their competitors. If they stop, if they take a break, if the global ecosystem collapses, then so does capitalism.

Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis Aug 3, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum Cute, but no.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 3, 2023

@Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis

Wow thanks

Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis Aug 3, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum Sure, i mean if you can cite research to prove your point I'll look at it but really. its a pretty poor theory that only has minimal observational support. If you can prove it I'll happily use it to smush other tweets I have seen in my thread today so win-win.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 3, 2023

@Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis

I’m trying and failing to figure out what it is you’re trying to accomplish here

Pyperkub Aug 3, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis IMHO. mostly that you are conflating monopolists with capitalists and what passes for capitalism today is NOT capitalism, it is the opposite of what Adam Smith meant by free markets in capital and labor, and most your issues appear to be with what monopolists are doing to corrupt free markets and perform rent-seeking. Capitalism with good rules and referees is what's needed, but both have been corrupted by monopolists (and not for the first time).

Pyperkub Aug 3, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis See @pluralistic 's examination of Private Equity and the Carried Interest Loophole: https://pluralistic.net/2021/04/29/writers-must-be-paid/#carried-interest

Pluralistic: 29 Apr 2021 – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow

Pyperkub Aug 3, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis @pluralistic And then realize even **THAT** scam isn't enough, and needs more scams: https://pluralistic.net/2023/07/20/continuation-fraud/

Pluralistic: Private equity ghouls have a new way to steal from their investors (20 July 2023) – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow

HeavenlyPossum Aug 4, 2023

@pluralistic @[email protected] @pyperkub

Why would the existence of “scams” be antithetical to profit-seeking in competitive markets by capital owners?

Pyperkub Aug 4, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic See above- "Capitalism with good rules and referees is what's needed"

HeavenlyPossum Aug 4, 2023

@pyperkub @pluralistic

Capitalism *is* the result of rules—it is inescapably the product of state violence and cannot exist without massive state interference. This *is* capitalism acting according to the rules; there is no “good” capitalism but only degrees of violence and exploitation.

Pyperkub Aug 4, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic and socialism/communism isn't?

Hmmm... might need to come up with some way to differentiate here...

@pyperkub @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic

It's quite simple really: if it involves a state, it's not socialism or communism.

If it involves a state existing from, let's say around 1900 or so on, it's either a private capitalist state (like the US, or even "Nordic Socialist" states) or state capitalism (like USSR, China, Cuba, DPRK, Vietnam, etc).

Hope this is helpful.

Pyperkub Aug 7, 2023

@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic From Britannica - you are still conflating "monopoly/oligopoly" with "capitalism". The point being that what we have is NOT a free market based economy (Defn of Capitalism here), based on market principles, but rather an oligopoly based on monopolistic principles. That is what #enshittification is all about - Rent Seeking through Monopoly.

PKMKII Aug 7, 2023

@pyperkub @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic An absolute free market economy can be talked about in the abstract but can’t exist in the real world as there’s always state involvement due to the state being the one that enforces private property claims. The current oligarchy/#enshittification regime is the natural result of the capitalist class using economic pressure on the state to protect its profits.

Pyperkub Aug 7, 2023

@PKMKII @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic People enforce private property claims too. Ever seen a "No Trespassing" Sign, or one that says "Trespassers will be shot" - that ain't the State. You're still describing market capture and regulatory capture by monopolists, not capitalism, and the KEY takeaway is that part of Good Government and Communities is required to prevent Capitalism from all of the above. We're failing at that, but it's not because teh capitalism is bad.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 7, 2023

@RD4Anarchy @PKMKII @pluralistic @pyperkub

“No trespassing” does not signify private ownership in the sense of capital. A capitalist’s property would be worthless as capital if the capitalist excluded people from it; who else would the capitalist collect rents from at gunpoint?

Pyperkub Aug 7, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @PKMKII @pluralistic So, Farmers who own their land aren't capitalists? Their land isn't their property, no matter who is enforcing their perceived "right" to their property? I am *literally* not buying this ;)

HeavenlyPossum Aug 7, 2023

@RD4Anarchy @pluralistic @pyperkub @PKMKII

Farmers are not capitalists. Some capitalists own farms on which farmers engage in productive activity, generating revenue that they had over to their owner in exchange for a fraction of it back as wages.

@HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic @pyperkub @PKMKII

A farmer owning their land doesn't make them capitalist, even if such ownership isn't really legitimate in an ideal sense.

If they work the land themselves and sell some of the product that doesn't make them capitalists either.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 7, 2023

@PKMKII @pyperkub @RD4Anarchy @pluralistic

Working their own land sort of disqualifies them from the status of capitalist.

@HeavenlyPossum @PKMKII @pyperkub @pluralistic

Are you sure? Even if they stash away a few turnips? ThAtS cApItAl!!1!! haha, Gotcha!

@HeavenlyPossum @PKMKII @pyperkub @pluralistic

I'll get my coat...

Pyperkub Aug 7, 2023

@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @PKMKII @pluralistic (is it made from turnips?) ;)

foresterr Aug 7, 2023

@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @PKMKII @pyperkub @pluralistic a couple turnips is fine, but I draw the line at turnip futures.

On a more serious note, that's pretty close to what my thinking eventually converged to - you are free to own anything, including means of production (your home, farming land, tools of your craft, etc.), as long as you, personally, are using them for a significant fraction of your time (which probably means they are personal property anyway and we can toss the whole concept of "private" one on the trash heap of history).

As soon as someone starts paying you for being able to use what you own, whether directly or through expropriated labor value, you are a capitalist (yes, that one rentable flat that you inherited from your grandma makes you a capitalist and the revolution won't spare you :P )