Mastodawn

Capitalism must always grow. It can never stop.

Capitalists must always seek to maximize differential profits—they have to collect *more* profits than their competitors.

Because you can reinvest those profits in buying up more revenue generating assets, you can expand your business and grab more market share. Or, like when Microsoft bought Nokia to grab the patents Nokia held, you can invest in blocking your competitors from expanding.

If your share of the market falls so far that you can’t make payroll or pay your creditors, you go out of business. Your capital is seized and sold off, and you become just another worker, subject to the whims and commands of capital owners.

So capital owners in competitive markets must always try to grow at a rate faster than their competitors. If they stop, if they take a break, if the global ecosystem collapses, then so does capitalism.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 3, 2023

This was the trade-off that the ruling elite made during the transition from the old feudal system to capitalism: producing exclusively for the market allowed capitalists to extract far more labor from the global working class than feudal lords could ever dream, but once the process got rolling, they could never jump back off.

Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis Aug 3, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum Cute, but no.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 3, 2023

@Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis

Wow thanks

Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis Aug 3, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum Sure, i mean if you can cite research to prove your point I'll look at it but really. its a pretty poor theory that only has minimal observational support. If you can prove it I'll happily use it to smush other tweets I have seen in my thread today so win-win.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 3, 2023

@Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis

I’m trying and failing to figure out what it is you’re trying to accomplish here

Pyperkub Aug 3, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis IMHO. mostly that you are conflating monopolists with capitalists and what passes for capitalism today is NOT capitalism, it is the opposite of what Adam Smith meant by free markets in capital and labor, and most your issues appear to be with what monopolists are doing to corrupt free markets and perform rent-seeking. Capitalism with good rules and referees is what's needed, but both have been corrupted by monopolists (and not for the first time).

Pyperkub Aug 3, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis See @pluralistic 's examination of Private Equity and the Carried Interest Loophole: https://pluralistic.net/2021/04/29/writers-must-be-paid/#carried-interest

Pluralistic: 29 Apr 2021 – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow

Pyperkub Aug 3, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis @pluralistic And then realize even **THAT** scam isn't enough, and needs more scams: https://pluralistic.net/2023/07/20/continuation-fraud/

Pluralistic: Private equity ghouls have a new way to steal from their investors (20 July 2023) – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow

HeavenlyPossum Aug 4, 2023

@pluralistic @[email protected] @pyperkub

Why would the existence of “scams” be antithetical to profit-seeking in competitive markets by capital owners?

Pyperkub Aug 4, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic See above- "Capitalism with good rules and referees is what's needed"

HeavenlyPossum Aug 4, 2023

@pyperkub @pluralistic

Capitalism *is* the result of rules—it is inescapably the product of state violence and cannot exist without massive state interference. This *is* capitalism acting according to the rules; there is no “good” capitalism but only degrees of violence and exploitation.

Pyperkub Aug 4, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic and socialism/communism isn't?

Hmmm... might need to come up with some way to differentiate here...

HeavenlyPossum Aug 4, 2023

@pluralistic @pyperkub

When in doubt, what about

Pyperkub Aug 4, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic lol tho I will admit that today's capitalists do seem to want to make feudalism great again. The point is that it is the people who are generally awful, nowadays...

HeavenlyPossum Aug 4, 2023

@pluralistic @pyperkub

I don’t understand what you’re saying here. “The people are generally awful” what?

Pyperkub Aug 4, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic Stalin, Mao, Xi, Trump, Musk, Bezos, Zuck, Putin, Bork (per Cory), etc. Greed for Power is not limited to capitalism. (Side note, I can make a pretty good argument that the Magna Carta was a market reaction to feudal kings' power grabs... the thing is that imbalanced markets like that will violently come to a new equilibrium, literally! sometimes, and that is not good for anyone if there are alternatives).

HeavenlyPossum Aug 4, 2023

@pluralistic @pyperkub

I agree that greed for power is not limited to capitalism, although there is no meaningful alternative to capitalism right now, but I’m not sure why you felt the need to tell me this.

@pyperkub @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic

It's quite simple really: if it involves a state, it's not socialism or communism.

If it involves a state existing from, let's say around 1900 or so on, it's either a private capitalist state (like the US, or even "Nordic Socialist" states) or state capitalism (like USSR, China, Cuba, DPRK, Vietnam, etc).

Hope this is helpful.

Pyperkub Aug 7, 2023

@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic From Britannica - you are still conflating "monopoly/oligopoly" with "capitalism". The point being that what we have is NOT a free market based economy (Defn of Capitalism here), based on market principles, but rather an oligopoly based on monopolistic principles. That is what #enshittification is all about - Rent Seeking through Monopoly.

Pyperkub Aug 7, 2023

@RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic And here's a starter on Monopolies - and realize that those excess profits are being invested, not in better products, but to create more monopolistic advantages: https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042215/how-does-monopoly-contribute-market-failure.asp

How Does a Monopoly Contribute to Market Failure?

According to some economic theorists, a monopoly is by nature inefficient and can lead to shortages and increased prices.

Investopedia

HeavenlyPossum Aug 7, 2023

@pluralistic @RD4Anarchy @pyperkub

All capitalist property is a monopoly.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 8, 2023

@pyperkub @pluralistic @RD4Anarchy

It’s important to understand “enshitification” in the broader context of capitalist critique. Thorstein Veblen observer a century ago that “business” (ie, capitalists) were often at odds with “industry” (ie, the people who work to materially supply society), and would often deliberately slow or “sabotage” production to maintain artificial scarcity and thus profits.

We see this more expansively today, from copyrights and trademarks to planned obsolescence to product crippling to the deliberate destruction of oversupply. Industry works to supply us; capital restricts to profit. You cannot profit from something that is not scarce, but many things we experience as “scarce” are not organically so, like access to social media. There is no shortage of tweets.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 8, 2023

@pluralistic @pyperkub @RD4Anarchy

Jonathan Bichler and Shimshon Nitzan have built on the work of Veblen and others to identify property itself as a form of sabotage—a declaration of interference—and capital as a measure of *social power* over others. This is why we do not identify your personal home or a farm you work yourself as “private property” or “capital” because it entails no command over anyone else. A property relationship becomes capital when it entails command—I own *your farm* that *you work* and collect a share of *your income* by virtue of ownership.

Their capital-as-power theory helps explain how both dollars in a bank and a farm or factory can be “capital” at the same time—because they represent the ability to command people to work for you, rather than the “stuff” itself.

Admin Aug 8, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @pyperkub @pluralistic @RD4Anarchy

Yep, we have had 20 years of #dotcons selling us libertarian individualism to push aside collective support of the "revolutionary" #openweb which is when we last had left tech power.

For this 20 years we have had #geekproblem pushing #closedweb as left tech, this is OBVIOUSLY a disaster we can't keep doing. Yes, let's not get into a prat fight, this is needed as a supplementary.

#indymediaback #OMN #OGB #makeinghistory

HeavenlyPossum Aug 7, 2023

@pyperkub @RD4Anarchy @pluralistic

All capitalism is rent-seeking through monopoly. Every bit of “capital” is a monopoly for the extraction of rents. Capitalism—a system of *capital*—is antithetical to any market operating via voluntary production and exchange.

No.

Maybe try this to get a better understanding. Seriously, it's a very comprehensive treatment, highly educational:

The Myths of Capitalist Economics
https://anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionC.html

@HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic

PKMKII Aug 7, 2023

@pyperkub @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic An absolute free market economy can be talked about in the abstract but can’t exist in the real world as there’s always state involvement due to the state being the one that enforces private property claims. The current oligarchy/#enshittification regime is the natural result of the capitalist class using economic pressure on the state to protect its profits.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 7, 2023

@pyperkub @PKMKII @RD4Anarchy @pluralistic

No state, no capitalism.

Capitalism? No free market.

Pyperkub Aug 7, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @PKMKII @RD4Anarchy @pluralistic Again - this isn't correct. There were markets long before there were States, and they were all about haggling for goods and services and being capitalists. And also there were bad actors who, if they didn't like the price, would take stuff. Just like now. Modern States are actually a market *reaction* to that use of violence/force to take what isn't yours. See the Magna Carta again.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 7, 2023

@pluralistic @pyperkub @RD4Anarchy @PKMKII

There were markers before states. There was no capitalism before states and, indeed, before the early modern state. Capitalism is, at most, a few centuries old and is not a synonym for “trade” or “commerce.”

Pyperkub Aug 7, 2023

You are WAY too invested in "the STATE" as the reason for Capitalism here. Not completely sure why.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 7, 2023

Because the state brought capitalism into existence and exists to serve capital owners.

Let’s try this: all that private property owned by capitalists—all the land, farms, mines, all those natural resource—how do you think it came to be owned by the capitalists who own it today?

Once upon a time, nobody owned it, but now someone owns it. What was that process like?

HeavenlyPossum Aug 7, 2023

I’m also really befuddled by your argument that the Magna Carta, of all things, was somehow a product of *market* forces. What exactly do you think the Magna Carta was?

Pyperkub Aug 7, 2023

@PKMKII @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic People enforce private property claims too. Ever seen a "No Trespassing" Sign, or one that says "Trespassers will be shot" - that ain't the State. You're still describing market capture and regulatory capture by monopolists, not capitalism, and the KEY takeaway is that part of Good Government and Communities is required to prevent Capitalism from all of the above. We're failing at that, but it's not because teh capitalism is bad.

Pyperkub Aug 7, 2023

@PKMKII @RD4Anarchy @HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic And this is true in Socialist and Communist Countries as well. It's just Power which gets monopolized w/o good government/governance. The fact is that market economics play out in all forms of government. Just with different currencies.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 7, 2023

@pyperkub @PKMKII @pluralistic @RD4Anarchy

There are no socialist or communist countries, in the meaningful sense of workers actually owning the means of production they build and operate.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 7, 2023

@RD4Anarchy @PKMKII @pluralistic @pyperkub

“No trespassing” does not signify private ownership in the sense of capital. A capitalist’s property would be worthless as capital if the capitalist excluded people from it; who else would the capitalist collect rents from at gunpoint?

Pyperkub Aug 7, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy @PKMKII @pluralistic So, Farmers who own their land aren't capitalists? Their land isn't their property, no matter who is enforcing their perceived "right" to their property? I am *literally* not buying this ;)

HeavenlyPossum Aug 7, 2023

@RD4Anarchy @pluralistic @pyperkub @PKMKII

Farmers are not capitalists. Some capitalists own farms on which farmers engage in productive activity, generating revenue that they had over to their owner in exchange for a fraction of it back as wages.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 7, 2023

@pyperkub @pluralistic @RD4Anarchy @PKMKII

“Private” property in the sense of capitalism isn’t just a synonym for “stuff you own.” Property takes many forms—things we own personally through use and occupancy, like our homes and our toothbrushes, or maybe things we own in common, like a home you share with your family and from which none of you can exclude the other.

“Private” property in the capitalist sense refers to ownership of someone else’s productive activity—their farm, or their business, or their home, which you own and can forcibly exclude them, which allows you to collect a rent.

Pyperkub Aug 7, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic @RD4Anarchy @PKMKII you can do this without a STATE tho. See the Drug Cartels/Orgainized Crime, neither of which gives a hoot about whether the country or countries they operate in is socialist/communist/feudal/capitalist etc.

@HeavenlyPossum @pluralistic @pyperkub @PKMKII

A farmer owning their land doesn't make them capitalist, even if such ownership isn't really legitimate in an ideal sense.

If they work the land themselves and sell some of the product that doesn't make them capitalists either.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 7, 2023

@PKMKII @pyperkub @RD4Anarchy @pluralistic

Working their own land sort of disqualifies them from the status of capitalist.

@pyperkub @HeavenlyPossum @PKMKII @pluralistic

Reality can be confusing when your mind has been infected by capital's narrative, which causes people to see everything as capital.

But capital isn't really stuff, it's a social relationship of command, it's power. It's the control of other people's labor.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 7, 2023

@PKMKII @RD4Anarchy @pyperkub @pluralistic

I see this so often: people are taught that a) capitalism is just trucking and bartering and trading, it’s free enterprise and economic liberty, and also b) we live under capitalism.

And some people are clever enough to recognize that what they were taught about (a) doesn’t look anything like the lived reality of (b).

And one possible solution to this contradiction is to conclude that we were lied to about capitalism.

Unfortunately, a lot of people cling to the idea that (a) is true and hence need excuses for the contradictions of (b). It’s those darn governments interfering with their minimum wages and cronyism and prohibitions on hunting humans for sport.

What we need desperately is for people to look critically at what capitalism actually is, because the idea of “voluntary production and free trade” part is utterly incompatible with the “private ownership of means of production” part, the part that is the actual product of government violence.

alraven Aug 8, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @PKMKII @RD4Anarchy @pyperkub @pluralistic the whole starting point of critical theory/radical critique (whether that is anarchist, communist, marxist, etc, or a mix) is this! Namely that modern social relations (incl. property and production relations, but you can include various structures of domination/violence) aren't the transparent and idyllic tale of harmony (e.g. that everyone gets "what they earn", that everyone is equal in the moment of exchange/market, etc) and progress (Steven Pinker lol) that hegemonic ideology/education/discourse/common sense tells us. It needs to be deconstructed/decyphered to unearth the actual social relations (and violence, exploitation, mafia-like hostage situations in the market, institutionalised violence e.g. police/borders/etc, )...

HeavenlyPossum Aug 4, 2023

@pyperkub @[email protected]

No. What we have now absolutely is capitalism, working precisely according to its own rules.

Andreu Casablanca 🐀Aug 5, 2023

@pyperkub @HeavenlyPossum @Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis Actually you are conflating capitalism with liberalism, they are cousins, but not the same.

@Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis @HeavenlyPossum

"go read some economics!"

https://kolektiva.social/@RD4Anarchy/110486882725230512

RD (@[email protected])

Appendix: EcOnOmIcS!!1!! "Mainstream economists are not interested in describing reality, they are interested, ultimately, in telling people how to behave. They actually are moralists more than scientists, but they pretend to be scientists, and they use moralistic language - "rational behavior" - to describe actions that any other sort of moralist would consider the essence of immoral behavior." - David Graeber If you have ever been told to "go learn some economics!", this post is for you. Here are links to a surplus of valuable thoughts on the subject, starting with the @[email protected] piece that was excerpted in the fifth post of this thread, in case you didn't read the whole thing then: Can the World Get Along Without Natural Resources? https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/2020/06/18/can-the-world-get-along-without-natural-resources/ A mathematician on the "free market" economic model, excellent thread from @[email protected] https://mastodon.social/@magitweeter/111653879323307502 Revealing paper from Shimshon Bichler and Jonathan Nitzan on how both liberal/neoclassical and Marxist economists fail at describing anything actually real when it comes to capital: Capital accumulation: fiction and reality "What we need now are not better tools, more accurate modelling and improved data, but a different way of thinking altogether, a totally new cosmology for the post-capitalist age." http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue72/BichlerNitzan72.pdf David Graeber: Against Economics https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-against-economics Interesting piece about what supply and demand misses, with important insights about value and market power, poverty and inequality: Bargaining Power and Prices: A Response to Sanyazi and Carson https://c4ss.org/content/58918 Exponential Economist Meets Finite Physicist https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2012/04/economist-meets-physicist/ Free Market Genocides: The Real History of Trade https://evonomics.com/free-market-genocide-the-real-history-of-trade/ GDP and the Idolatry of Growth from @dsdamato https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/05/25/gdp-and-the-idolatry-of-growth/ The Lie At The Heart Of Consumer Society https://indica.medium.com/the-lie-at-the-heart-of-consumer-society-1a6fe24d832f The Problem With Economic Models from @[email protected] https://pluralistic.net/2023/04/03/all-models-are-wrong/#some-are-useful David Graeber: What is the meaning of money? https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-note-worthy-what-is-the-meaning-of-money Here's another article from @[email protected] that really belongs here: The Ritual of Capitalization https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/2021/06/02/the-ritual-of-capitalization/ For an extensive deep dive into capitalist economics, here is a very thorough examination from An Anarchist FAQ, very much worth your time: What are the myths of capitalist economics? https://anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionC.html "State Capitalism: The Wages System Under New Management" by Adam Buick and John Crump https://files.libcom.org/files/State%20Capitalism.pdf The focus of this short book is to argue (very successfully IMO) that individual private ownership is not a defining feature of capitalism and that countries such as China, The Soviet Union (this was published in 1986), Cuba, Vietnam, etc, though they may identify as "socialist" and are called "communist" by many are in fact simply another form of capitalism called "state capitalism". In the process of making this argument, this book also became an excellent general reference for understanding what capitalism really is, how capitalist economics work, what socialism really is and isn't, and plenty of fascinating and clarifying historic context. I would be remiss not to mention: "Debt: The First 5,000 Years" by David Graeber, an absolute must-read to better understand the history of debt and money. https://we.riseup.net/assets/393727/David+Graeber+Debt+The+First+5+000+Years.pdf #economics #capitalism

kolektiva.social

Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis Aug 3, 2023

@RD4Anarchy Sure lets just blindly believe the Anarchists.... that will end well. @HeavenlyPossum I'm interested in speaking with people who think differently than I do and I do sometimes act slightly tonally reflective which can piss people off but hey I might learn something.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 3, 2023

@Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis @RD4Anarchy

You expressly told me you weren’t interested in learning anything from me, an anarchist.

Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis Aug 3, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum @RD4Anarchy well, you seem to have problems with the English language since I said upthread "Blindly follow" which is different than "not interested in learning anything" which you claim I said. Of course I now suspect that some anarchists conflate the two in their heads

HeavenlyPossum Aug 3, 2023

@Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis @RD4Anarchy

You seem to be having trouble being a decent person

Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis Aug 3, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum if you say so. You are allowed to believe whatever you want.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 3, 2023

@Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis

You’re welcome to try again without the smirky dismissive bullshit, and you’re equally welcome to fuck off if you can’t stop being a troll for a moment.

Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis Aug 3, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum well I can c&d the smirk, but you gotta play the same on the BS. Dismissive is core to the argument though, because I don't buy the basic premise.

HeavenlyPossum Aug 3, 2023

@Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis

“I disagree” is not an argument. “Do research work for me that I might but probably won’t consider” isn’t an argument. You don’t find my post compelling? That’s fine, I will not lose sleep over it.

Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis Aug 3, 2023

@HeavenlyPossum good fortune with you.

costrike Aug 3, 2023

@Alexander_Anotherskip_Davis @HeavenlyPossum "I disagree with your argument wholesale, but please provide receipts for its entirety" is a bullshit request that's designed for dismissal. Pick the argument apart, call out something you believe to be factually inaccurate or go troll someone on Twitter.