David Gerard

== HOW TO SET UP ON THE DECENTRALISED FEDERATED SERVICE "E-MAIL" IN 2023 ==

1. your problem is Google, MS and Yahoo.
2. SMTP over SSL *only*.
3. SPF, DMARC, DKIM
4. they don't like your IP or your face or can't be bothered or something and you have weeks of supplication hoping there's a human there
5. give up and outsource it

as a sysadmin, I always advise going straight to step 5

anyone using "e-mail" as an example of a successfully decentralised federated service in 2023 does not know what they're talking about and should be ignored

stop doing this

====

EDIT: if you're a fatuous dipshit, read the replies before you answer. or better, don't.

Aug 1, 2023 at 12:02pmWeb
Show threadoxyAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard pretty much gave up on it professionally in 2013. After more than a decade of massaging milter/sendmail or convincing an exchange server to unfuck its information store I tapped out
Show threadoxyAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard and don't get me started on domino/notes
Show threadDavid GerardAug 1, 2023
@oxyhyxo i remember sendmail.cf, postfix is hauntingly simple by comparison
Show threadoxyAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard Slackware came with sendmail by default and it stuck lol
Show threadDavid GerardAug 1, 2023

@oxyhyxo debian/ubuntu postfix is a delight

pity about the big three

microsoft was actually the worst to get a human at, we were a gapps customer with an account manager so could ask him to push it along

Show threadoxyAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard oh don't get me wrong I loathe the big cloud email providers. It was more me admitting defeat and submitting to the void
Show threadoxyAug 1, 2023

@davidgerard I've had some corkers with microsoft 365 support. Mailboxes just disappearing, support being unable to tell me anything. Pushing it along through the acct mgmt channel, nothing. Then the mailbox just magically reappears.

No postmortem, no-one can tell me why. Magical stuff

Show threadBerslAug 1, 2023
@oxyhyxo @davidgerard It's finally Postfix in 15.0.
Show threadjeegerAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard @oxyhyxo Exim is p. good
Show threadoxyAug 1, 2023
@jeeger @davidgerard I've been dabbling with the idea of self hosting again - just have to get past the wave of fatigue that sets in at the thought
Show threadjeegerAug 1, 2023
@oxyhyxo It's nice when you can get it working exactly the way you want.
Show threadDavid GerardAug 1, 2023
@oxyhyxo @jeeger god i never want to host things
Show threadjeegerAug 1, 2023
@[email protected] Not for others, no.
Show threadoxyAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard @jeeger I'd never recommend it professionally
Show threadJaime HerazoAug 2, 2023
@oxyhyxo
Absolutely same!
@jeeger @davidgerard
Show threadAlisonW ♿🏳️‍🌈♾️Aug 1, 2023
@oxyhyxo @davidgerard
Notes was absolutely great in 1997-9 when my team only had occasional access when travelling around Europe. The asynch just worked.
Wouldn't use it now though...
Show threadDavid GerardAug 1, 2023
@AlisonW @oxyhyxo i refuse to believe that Notes was at any point ever great. it did inspire me to write this though https://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/Lotus_Notes
Lotus Notes

Uncyclopedia
Show threadAlisonW ♿🏳️‍🌈♾️Aug 1, 2023
@davidgerard @oxyhyxo
Yeah, well, we did need a permanent member of staff just to manage the notes install for us. We had a niche usecase which meant it was a suitable product, I doubt it was for others.
Show threadoxyAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard @AlisonW https://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/Lotus_Notes#Treatment <--- True story
Lotus Notes

Uncyclopedia
Show threadTinyThomasAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard I would like to add Deutsche Telekom to #1. Otherwise 100% agree!
Show threadBarbarossaAug 1, 2023

@TinyThomas @davidgerard never had any issues with them (or any other big mail provider), neither privately nor professionally. But this is a highly anecdotal issue on either side.

Now that I think about it, there was exactly one case of Deutsche Telekom sending mail from a server not listed in their own list of outgoing servers. All other issues were self made by our marketing department before we as new IT staff mitigated their behaviour on our mail gateway.

Show threadfedops 💙💛Aug 1, 2023

@TinyThomas had to contact them once to get my IP off their block list. That was a surprisingly good experience. Not only did I receive a personal email from an actual human, my IP was unblocked and remains so to this day. Pretty professional.

M365 is on-and-off, typical erratical microsoft. The only solid fail is google. Oh well. I'm probably the only person on the planet with 0 friends on gmail so IDC. 🤷
@davidgerard

Show threadRachel GreenhamAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard @cstross however, in this analogy you're describing the (real, undisputed, BTDT) problems with trying to set up an independent email instance server, not just being a user of email and deciding, eg: whether to use google, proton, fastmail, etc and figuring out how to send and receive emails with people on other instances…
Show threadDavid GerardAug 1, 2023
@StrangeNoises @cstross setting up an independent server is specifically the analogy being made when someone uses email as an example of a successfuly decentralised federated protocol. there's no "however" about it.
Show threadTom BoutellAug 2, 2023

@davidgerard @StrangeNoises @cstross I suppose it’s fair to point out that there are multiple choices for email and consumers don’t really tear their hair out choosing among them. Because the press cannot shut up about the awful struggle of choosing a Mastodon server.

But to say “oh, the decentralization of email just works” is as you point out chalk on a chalkboard to those of us who have tried to be on the hosting end.

Show threadDavid GerardAug 2, 2023

@boutell @StrangeNoises @cstross tbf, picking a server turns out to be important if you pick an instance whose admin is feuding with the admin of your friend's instance - much more so than with email

the mastodon server problem is very far from being a press concoction

Show threadTom BoutellAug 2, 2023
@davidgerard @StrangeNoises @cstross Well yes, you can make an unfortunate choice, but you can also move. It's possible I've been insulated by a fortunate choice (toot.cat isn't feuding with anybody that I know of).
Show threadDavid GerardAug 2, 2023
@boutell @StrangeNoises @cstross and that still doesn't make it some sort of press concoction and not a problem for others
Show threadTom BoutellAug 2, 2023
@davidgerard @StrangeNoises @cstross My intention just now was to acknowledge that. I think the press overblows it, like you just CAN'T decide so here go use Threads.
Show threadNicholas WeaverAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard
Heck, ICSI where I work is the International Computer Science Institute. We ran our own email since, well, forever. A couple years back we gave up and outsourced to Google.
Show threadSvenjaAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard was thinking about doing that. thanks for stopping me.
Show threadDavid GerardAug 1, 2023
@svenja it's worth doing once if you lack futility in your life, but
Show threadIrinaAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard We have outsourced it but the Big Ones still occasionally think that what our (small) ISP sends is spam.
Show threadAngus McIntyreAug 1, 2023

@davidgerard This is profoundly depressing, because it's a reminder that no matter how open a standard might be, if enough large interests collude, they can close it off by simply refusing to talk to anyone else.

It’s a model for the way Threads and friends can try to co-opt the Fediverse.

It's also reminiscent of Google's “Web Integrity API” initiative, which will close off parts of the web to any but 'approved' (i.e. surveillable) user agents.

Call it enclosing the digital commons …

Show threadJesseAug 1, 2023

@davidgerard
You're right, and it probably needs an asterisk, but is the analogy in the context of explaining how fedi works really harmful? I rarely see it as a basis for self-hosting as something easy to do, but only to explain concepts like ActivityPub to folks without a technical background.

Everybody deals with email, and generally understands what the @ means in an address, so I've seen a number of people "get" it thanks to that, and I can't think of another one that's as universal

Show threadDavid GerardAug 1, 2023

@jaawerth mostly that it's a lie on multiple important levels. also that if the fedi was like email, that's actually the feared *failure* mode.

i have repeatedly had email put to me as slam dunk proof that decentralised federation is feasible. but that's a clown assertion.

Show threadJesseAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard
That's fair. I've mostly seen it in things like https://docs.joinmastodon.org/#federation or in journalism about fedi, and seen other people absorb it easily, so wasn't too uncomfortable with it as a sort of "spherical cow" idealized example for simplification, but yeah not if it's reinforcing the idea that, um, cows are spherical
Mastodon documentation

Welcome to the Mastodon documentation!

Show threadDavid GerardAug 1, 2023

@jaawerth ah, i didn't realise joinmastodon was the source of the disease

mind you, with mastodon.social liaising with threads.net, maybe they were just telling us

yeah, in common usage it's "but we know cows can be spherical, look at email"

decentralisation is literally always temporary and contingent - because if the word "decentralised" even comes into a discussion, it's because it's a contrast with a centralised common example, and that means you're in a space that naturally centralises.

nobody even says "decentralised" unless there's already centralisation.

Show threadCharles RandallAug 1, 2023

@davidgerard @jaawerth I think mastodon needs an optional level of centralization to solve some of the platform problems, but I also think the problem is that people look at it as a monolithic social network when in reality what it is (and should be) is a loose connection of various communities.

Mastodon's biggest problem is that mastodon.social was ever a thing.

Show threadJoby (chaotic good)Aug 1, 2023
@davidgerard Can confirm. I really wanted to host my own email, but deliverability to the big services was a serious problem, so now I just pay Proton like $5/month for all that to be Somebody Else's Problem™️
Show threadGlitch (over count 1999)Aug 1, 2023
@davidgerard any recommendations for point 5 that doesn't feel like I'm getting screwed over in pricing for being incompetent/demand I buy into corporates latest crappy PWA (looking at you protonmail)/have weird restrictions on things like alias counts (I like unique aliases for accounts to limit spam for when DBs get hacked).

Email is such a hell to setup, I've tried it a few times over the years and it's the one self-hosted maintenance hell I'd rather avoid.
Show threadPhilippa CowderoyAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard Email might not be truly centralised but it's sure as shit polycentric in an unpleasant way!
Show threadDavid GerardAug 1, 2023
@flippac oligarchic
Show threadPhilippa CowderoyAug 1, 2023

@davidgerard You could take the money per se out [modulo running costs] and the concentration of power would still be enough of a problem!

(which is to say: an EU-wide "public" competitor would only make the problem even worse)

Show threadPhilippa CowderoyAug 1, 2023

@davidgerard Thing that might actually improve it: a large enough organisation representing the interests of smaller operators (perhaps with the likes of Fastmail as their largest members, and both groups and individuals free to join)

Problem is, even with the larger orgs participating it's likely (if for different reasons) to be about as effective as Babylon 5's League of Non-Aligned Worlds. It would certainly help document the way market dominance is used, though.

Show threadAdministratorAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard Not at all; I do step #5 to run Mastodon. 😆
Show threadIñaki ArenazaAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard Or, you know, give Google, Microsoft and Yahoo the middle finger and continue to federate just fine with the rest of the world.
Show threadDavid GerardAug 1, 2023
@iarenaza see, this is a good example of not knowing what the fuck you're talking about
Show threadLisPiAug 1, 2023

@davidgerard @iarenaza Not really, the only reasons it's not an option is because email is now necessary for various functions of daily life and because we forgot about antitrust & anti-competitive behavior.

If either of those two stopped to hold true, it becomes just fine as an option.

Show threadJulia RezAug 1, 2023

@davidgerard

Yes.

I've run medium-sized mailservers and (oh, god) news-servers, and, no. Not doing that again.

TBH, I think the rot set in with ORBS.

Show threadDavid GerardAug 1, 2023
@JuliaRez yes, the whole reason for email going oligopoly is that spammers mean we can't have nice things
Show threadJulia RezAug 1, 2023

@davidgerard

The notion of 'IP reputation' has turned out to be far more stupid and colonialist than I ever imagined.

The 'automation' of that turned into the sort of mess that's no doubt familiar to the T&S people who've had to deal with moderation-by-perl-script.

Show threadkatzenbergerAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard Email is still an exceptionally useful example for warning against single nodes in the "standardized" network becoming too large.
Show thread🆘Bill Cole 🇺🇦Aug 1, 2023
@katzenberger @davidgerard The history of Internet email is full of enlightening missteps. The Original Sin was ignoring authentication and consent until both became unmanageable problems.
Show threadjonossa seuraavaAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard
That's pretty similar to fedi, eh?

Esoteric block lists without explanation or ability uo complain.


Run the wrong software, get blocked lmao.


And the massive instances of course talk to each other. Then there is the wild west of small instances
Show threadUrsidinoj/The BjornsdottirsAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard qmail admins crying in the corner
Show threadOleksandr Natalenko, MSE Aug 1, 2023
@davidgerard telling people to just "go away" is for sure a constructive way to support the discussion
Show threadDavid GerardAug 1, 2023
@oleksandr yeah thanks that's great, further responses will be $100 in advance
Show threadpingterAug 1, 2023
@davidgerard Well there's always the XMPP example, which... also definitely wasn't ruined with Google's involvement...
Show threadMynacolAug 1, 2023

@davidgerard I'm running my own mail server, quite successfully.

When I first set stuff up with a new domain and IP, GMail moved my mails into the spam folder of recipients. Nowadays GMail just works.

It seems I have no correspondence with @outlook.com or @yahoo.com users, but I had exchanges with outlook.com-hosted custom domains, without problems.

It seems I was really lucky with IP reputation stuff. First my server was at Hetzner, recently I moved to Oracle.