Mister PantsJul 30, 2023
myrmepropagandist

I've been trying to find the right way to articulate this-- but the folks on the right have it backwards about who is driven by "white guilt" --

This impulse to cover up and distort the history of slavery reeks of shame. It's, frankly, weird. Nobody has perfect ancestors, what sort of crisis of identity leads one to lie about the past.

It's just the things that happened. You learn about them you learn from them. You do better. Don't make it so emotional and personal.

Jul 30, 2023 at 12:55amWeb
Show threadAlex WildJul 30, 2023
@futurebird It reeks less of shame and more of planning. It’s easier to rebuild Jim Crow if the people on the wrong side of the fence aren’t fully aware of the last Jim Crow.
Show threadAlex WildJul 30, 2023
@futurebird Also, “white guilt” is the relatively benign framing you run with for the public if you are personally invested in private prisons or other race-entangled forms of enrichment.
Show threadapophisJul 30, 2023
@alexwild @futurebird it's both - they want to do it, but not be called out for doing it, they just want it to be normal and their only problem isn't that it's bad but merely that other people are saying it's bad in a way that could affect their reputation

it's an *entirely* shame-based morality with no room for objective right or wrong whatsoever
Show threadJust JJul 30, 2023
@alexwild @futurebird No reason it can't be both, though.
Show threadBørgeJul 30, 2023
@futurebird Or they want to bring back legal domestic slavery, and needs people to not be aware how terrible it is.
Show threadhwebbJul 30, 2023
@futurebird It's like the reaction, "I feel like I'm supposed to feel guilty about everything." Nobody's expecting you to feel anything. Acknowledge the injustices and help us to fix them. The only reason you would feel guilty is if you don't care, in which case you simply need to get out of the way.
Show threadAllen B. SkyeJul 30, 2023

@futurebird I think Adeem the Artist (#altcountry) did a good job with this concept.

“I mean, I never worked the auction block or joined the Christian Knights
Never called someone a racial epithet at a traffic light
And I know we never asked to be born white
We were not taught the world was so goddamn unjust, but it's on us to make it right”

from “Heritage of Arrogance”

https://youtu.be/9FEFSL_dwwg

Heritage of Arrogance

YouTube
Show threadKeith Ammann @ GameStormJul 30, 2023

@futurebird As a second-generation German-American, my position on Nazi atrocities is, my ancestry doesn't mean that I bear blame, but it does mean I bear responsibility—at a minimum, NOT TO DO THAT KIND OF SHIT, but beyond that, to resist others' efforts to do it.

I think some overly sensitive white folks in this country could take a lesson from this framing.

Nobody's telling them to "feel guilty." We're telling them to see what's right and fucking do it, without trying to make it about THEM.

Show threadBenjamin 🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍🌈Jul 30, 2023
@KeithAmmann @futurebird My family owned slaves. From what I can tell, it was a pretty major plantation. I’m not ashamed of that, it is what it is. What I’m ashamed of is the fact that the rest of my family thinks thats cool in the 21st century, that’s embarrassing. They don’t want to lessen white guilt, they want to keep the romance that they think makes them cool and that’s just gross
Show threadLeft Field FarmJul 31, 2023
@phoenixashes76 @KeithAmmann @futurebird Same same. Some of my ancestors owned slaves. NGL I feel some guilt about that, not because I did it but because I have benefitted from the system. It has made me conscious or woke. I'm willing to pay reparations because I know I started at the middle of the 100-yard dash, not the beginning.
Show threadVirginicusJul 30, 2023
@KeithAmmann @futurebird Well said.
Show threadUgh (“ugh”)Jul 30, 2023
@KeithAmmann @futurebird @UberAirQuality Naw, I’m telling them to feel guilty. As fuck. And THEN to listen to your more empathetic take on things.
Show threadneville parkAug 2, 2023

@KeithAmmann @futurebird There's an often-quoted Jewish saying which comes to mind regarding stuff like this: "It is not your duty to finish the work, but neither are you free to neglect it" (https://www.sefaria.org/Pirkei_Avot.2.16?lang=bi)

In other words: you didn't start it. You don't have to finish it. But you DO have to work on it.

It makes me think of a politician who gets into office and when faced with a problem, blames it on their predecessor and does nothing about it. Like, sorry, you didn't make this situation, but it's still your job to fix it! It's just the way the world works!

Pirkei Avot 2:16 | Sefaria Library

He [Rabbi Tarfon] used to say: It is not your duty to finish the work, but neither are you at liberty to neglect it; If you have studied much Torah, you shall...

Show threadMikeNMJul 30, 2023
@futurebird @lisamelton Well yeah, but boomers were raised in the middle of the Cold War. They got the Truth Justice and the American way drilled into them with the Under God added to the pledge, and by their thirties in the Regan revolution American Exceptionalism became the only acceptable political position. The irony is that the cognitive dissonance is coming from things going on across town from where they lived and were filled full of propaganda.
Show threadRuth WarkentinJul 30, 2023
@finalbroadcast
Yeah, the boomers just swallowed that shit whole, none of them ever rebelled, none of them were still in college when Reagan was president, none of them wore black armbands to class the day after the 1980 election ... oh, wait ...
::eyeroll::
Show threadMikeNMJul 30, 2023
@RuthWarkentin since you mistook the criticism prevailing attitudes of your generation a for personal attack I’ll leave it to your generation’s shining cultural critic https://youtu.be/aTZ-CpINiqg
George Carlin Whining Baby Boomers

YouTube
Show threadRuth WarkentinAug 2, 2023
@finalbroadcast
You don't actually know what the prevailing attitudes of my generation are. Carlin hilariously generalized about a certain class of white boomers who came from the first half of that age cohort, but they were and are only a subset of the whole group. If you want to criticize something, you need to first know something about it.
Show threadRowinSpeezJul 30, 2023
@futurebird I read about this in the book White Fragility, I’ve never had so many revelations reading a single book ever. It made me feel ashamed at 34 - that I didn’t ever have to reflect on race and how that in itself reveals the racism in insulating white people from having to be remotely uncomfortable about the actual history of the world. And that buffer comes at the cost of everyone else.
Show threadMilesMcBainJul 30, 2023
@futurebird I’m from Australia, where the details are different but broad strokes are similar to other colonised countries. The situation is a lot of families with wealth that goes back generations derrived that wealth through race-based violence. Land theft, massacres, slavery, exploitation etc. I think it’s likely that white washing of history was largely motivated by protecting their wealth from questions of legitimacy and compensation, and that’s why it’s done so aggressively.
Show threadMilesMcBainJul 30, 2023
@futurebird fast forward a century or two and that protective deception has been baked into the culture as a reflex. You do tend to see it strongest in rural areas, and perhaps that has something to do with the fact that that land is most at risk from native title claims.
Show threadPamela EhnJul 30, 2023
@futurebird guilt is the con artist of emotions. Only bad people feel guilty. Let me repeat, only bad people feel guilty. Bad people get to point to their guilt to frame themselves as good people but guilt feels really bad so in short order, they resent the people they have harmed that make them feel guilty, so they feel justified in harming them AGAIN. If I point out to someone that I was harmed by their behavior and their response is “I feel guilty,” I RUN. That person will never change nor take responsibility for their behavior. What good people experience when they have harmed someone is remorse. Yeah, you feel bad, but it comes with a sense of responsibility: that behavior was unworthy of me so I better not do that again. It’s the difference between “I’m sorry you were offended” and “I’m sorry I hurt you.” When the right makes claims about white guilt, they are broadcasting that not only will they not change, they plan to punish people for making them feel guilty.
Show threadPamela EhnJul 30, 2023
@futurebird and because these people are effectively stunted, they project white guilt onto the rest of us because they can’t imagine that people could possibly respond in any other way. They have no idea that those of us white people who support BLM aren’t doing it because we feel guilty. We feel responsible. Guilt is how people absolve themselves of responsibility. They have no concept of helping people because it’s just what you do. They have no ethic of caring. Which is why the caring professions are so undervalued.
Show threadsanfierroAug 2, 2023
@cadenza @futurebird "Only bad people feel guilty" is not true. And saying it also creates a positive feedback loop. Not to invalidate any other points you made, they are pretty interesting.
Show threadPamela EhnAug 2, 2023
@sanfierro @futurebird no, I stand by what I said. Guilt is the conman of emotions. Good people, i.e. those who take responsibility for their actions, feel remorse. Remorse encourages you to take responsibility and resolve never to do it again. Guilt absolves you of that responsibility. It is really the difference between “I’m sorry I hurt you” (remorse) and the non-apology of “I’m sorry you were offended” (guilt). Guilt makes you feel bad to your core, so then you start to resent the person you hurt who made you feel guilty and then you feel justified in doing it again. Remorse doesn’t make you feel bad all the way down because you realize you have a choice and you can make that choice not to do it again.
Show threadmyrmepropagandistAug 2, 2023

@cadenza @sanfierro

Maybe it's more like choosing to simply live with guilt or worse expect whoever is the source of the guilt to "fix" it for you is probably bad.

Guilt is a first step ... the next should be addressing it.

Show threadPamela EhnAug 2, 2023
@futurebird @sanfierro when people take responsibility for their guilt, it’s remorse. This is why it’s a cleaner feeling and doesn’t taint everything like guilt does. Because with remorse comes resolve to clean up your own mess. Those who don’t take the responsibility to clean up their mess feel guilty.
Show threadPamela EhnAug 2, 2023
@futurebird @sanfierro lots of bad people feel guilt for what they do, and they point to their guilty conscience as proof that they are good. But they aren’t good because they are doing nothing to change their own behavior. They use guilt as a Get Out of Jail Free card. These same people seem to think that to take responsibility or even apologize would be to show unforgivable weakness. And so nothing gets resolved, the guilt festers, and the guilty party gets so fed up with feeling bad that they feel justified in taking it out on the victim again. Plenty of abusive relationships run on that dynamic. But at the core, if you refuse to clean up the mess you made, you are not a good person.
Show threadsanfierroAug 2, 2023
@cadenza @futurebird Let me give you an example. I'm pretty sure many gay people in this world feel guilty for being gay. Even though they are good people and it's perfectly okay to be gay. Or is that remorse again?
Show threadPamela EhnAug 2, 2023
@sanfierro @futurebird that’s not guilt. That’s shame. You can only feel guilt for what you do, not what you are. And good people are made to feel shame all the time. Shame is not the fault of the people experiencing it.
Show threadsanfierroAug 2, 2023
@cadenza @futurebird Oh, an interesting perspective. I'll write it down for myself as a possible truth.
Show threadsanfierroAug 2, 2023
@cadenza @futurebird I think the border between "what you are" and "what you do" can be blurry, so can the border between shame and guilt. Imagine a person who does something. For whatever reason they think they're doing something bad, the cause isn't necessarily the society, I'm talking in the general sense. What they're doing is actually neutral or even good, and it can even be done with best intentions, they just don't know it. Now, if they don't know it, how can their brain choose to turn on shame instead of guilt?
Show threadPamela EhnAug 2, 2023
@sanfierro @futurebird you’re overthinking it. Shame and guilt often feel the same. The difference is on the locus. If you did something bad, it’s guilt. You caused the bad thing to happen and you are not taking responsibility. If you feel bad for what you are, that’s shame. And other people put that there. No one comes into the world feeling ashamed of themselves.
Show threadsanfierroAug 2, 2023
@cadenza @futurebird I feel like, according to your definition, shame and guilt are not emotions or feelings, but a combination of them and some factual circumstances the person in question doesn't need to even be aware of.
Show threadPamela EhnAug 2, 2023
@sanfierro @futurebird something like that.
Show threadBarry GoldmanJul 30, 2023
@futurebird yeah but what if it's not just things that happened in the past? if its stuff they want to keep doing?
Show threadQueen of AnxietyJul 30, 2023
@futurebird I think the people most ranting about it know they would do the same thing if given the same level of power. And it shows from how they treat their workers and/or people in service industries.
Show threadJake MillerJul 30, 2023

@futurebird I think that this indicates those people hold a strong racial identification, and probably some other related belief systems as well. “Of course my kids will feel guilty about things that white people did.”

An understanding of structural inequality also threatens the myth of meritocracy. Without “meritocracy” then “you didn’t earn it” which rattles the foundation of several conservative belief systems. And one might feel guilty for having unearned advantage.

Show threadRiaResistsJul 30, 2023
@futurebird not normal. We’ve gone so far into righty psychosis that nothing surprises me anymore.
This kind of crap is so disturbing that I can’t even find memes or gifs about it the least bit funny.
Show threadMaude NificentJul 30, 2023

@futurebird

if we (whites) accept the truth about the past we will have to acknowledge that the racism of “the past” has simply mutated and is not in the past at all.*

this would require us to actually change, or live with cognitive dissonance, and we don’t like to do hard things ourselves; we usually get “people of the global majority” to do them for us.

*e.g. “let’s ban chattel slavery” - “but who will do stuff cheap?” - “what about prisoners?” - “we don’t have enough prisoners” - “oh, let’s criminalise being not-white”

Show threadAT-AT Assault 🏳️‍⚧️Jul 30, 2023

@futurebird

Not shame, intent to reproduce. You cant trick a population into accepting slavery again, if it's aware of how bad slavery is.

Show threadgavinisdie Jul 30, 2023
@futurebird the whole thing of "white guilt" seems to only exist because Neo confeds etc think the rest of us think like them
Show threadNicole ParsonsJul 30, 2023

@futurebird

You cover up history when you want a do-over.

Republican billionaire donors want to end America's multiracial pluralistic democracy and bring back slavery.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2022/07/01/downplaying-slavery-texas-educators-will-call-it-involuntary-relocation-under-new-plan-and-heres-where-else-its-happening/?sh=47fbea501dc0

Timothy Mellon.
https://coloradonewsline.com/2022/10/10/odea-donor-mellon-gilded-age-slavery/

https://time.com/4236640/donald-trump-racist-supporters/

https://truthout.org/articles/while-democrats-work-on-infrastructure-republicans-are-busy-defending-slavery/

https://www.npr.org/2023/06/20/1183122314/republican-primary-election-fundraising-billion-dollar-donations

https://wisconsinwatch.org/2023/07/wisconsin-billionaires-effort-shrink-social-safety-net/

https://jacobin.com/2023/02/republican-party-child-labor-inequality-freedom-from-domination

https://www.commondreams.org/news/billionaires-congress-election-2022-midterms

https://www.commondreams.org/news/no-labels-funded-by-billionaires

https://www.commondreams.org/news/gop-irs-cuts-debt-limit

https://www.forbes.com/sites/giacomotognini/2022/11/04/meet-the-real-estate-billionaire-who-hates-affordable-housing-and-loves-trump-and-the-gop/

Downplaying Slavery: Texas Educators Will Call It ‘Involuntary Relocation’ Under New Plan—And Here’s Where Else It’s Happening

Conservative educators say teaching about slavery makes students uncomfortable

Forbes
Show threadCyber YukiJul 30, 2023

@futurebird Orwell's words were indeed prophetic:

Who controls the past, controls the future: who controls the present, controls the past… The mutability of the past is the central tenet of Ingsoc. Past events, it is argued, have no objective existence, but survive only in written records and in human memories. The past is whatever the records and the memories agree upon. And since the Party is in full control of all records, and in equally full control of the minds of its members, it follows that the past is whatever the Party chooses to make it.

By erasing their sins, they will again be the heroes. They will be immaculate, the party of the perfect, the moral high ground. It's the others that are sinful, it's the others that are terrorists, it's the others that commit genocide. "But we're the good guys!"

Show threadGeofCoxJul 30, 2023

@yuki2501 @futurebird

Sartre would see this in terms of the 'bad faith' of self-justification.
Just as the wealthy and privileged generally see their 'success' as a result of their cleverness or talent or hard work - not the truth that it's generally the result of the accident of their birth - many people become similarly attached to a shared mythic history of a great nation, or a 'people'.

When the myth is attacked - however reasonably - the attack is felt by such people as not just on the myth, but on the sense of identity attached to it - to them, it is personal.

Show threadBrian GrinterJul 30, 2023
@futurebird @lisamelton sounds like a few countries to be honest…
Show threadRandy HallJul 30, 2023
@futurebird "how dare you make me feel guilty about what my ancestors did" or "none of my ancestors had enslaved people" or "I didn't personally have enslaved people, so why should I have to know about it" and on and on.
The white person's average lack of ability to reflect on how our society invisibly helps them and makes their lives easier, from the billionaires to the most destitute unhoused, is really astounding, and not in a good way.
Show threadAlexJul 30, 2023

@futurebird @lisamelton same happened to multiple generations in Germany, where there was no teachings about WW2 and the Nazis.
These generations are now old enough to make politics.

Humans do learn shit.

Show threadTanquistJul 30, 2023
@futurebird
#RodSerling and #GeneRoddenberry expertly used popular #television dramas to expose the public to shameful episodes in our #history and analyze the consequences.
#TwilightZone #StarTrek #humanism
Show threadTobiWanKenobiJul 30, 2023

@futurebird

A shame reaction would be still good because it means they realized they're doing something wrong.

From my outsider's view, it seems more like the typical racial supremacy delusion of Nazis - the idea that your race is the best and superior and all inferior races are to be put and held in the place they belong. And I'm pretty sure, if you look around you'll find publications and books desperately trying to argue out why they, the white "pure" Americans, are supposedly so much better than everyone else. Hitler and his Nazis were also good at writing books full of such shit (while burning all other books).

So if they talk about "white guilt," they likely feel that something is unrightfully pushed on them by inferior beings.

Show threadSBirdJul 30, 2023
@futurebird I really hope our colonial history in Portugal is being taught differently to kids now than it was in my time. Very little mention of slave trade, too much mention of "peaceful" cultural exchange. I was a child, so I don't remember what I learned that well, but I didn't get the impression it was bad. Only when I studied the end of the dictatorship in the XXth century did I go back and evaluate why people are still very much racist.
Show threadUnit 6416 ΘΔJul 30, 2023

@futurebird The reason why the right is so sheepish about American History is not because they are shameful or remorseful, its because that is what they aspire to be, what they aspire the country to be. If people are undereducated, theyre easier to scare towards the intended direction - easier to contol, and easier to hide the intended future from them.

The right is not ashamed of bad history, they are shy of it because they intend to become it.

Show threadMaggie MaybeJul 30, 2023
@futurebird and it’s super weird I don’t feel any responsibility about how my grandparents behaved, or my parents. I can only be responsible for how I behave in the world. But I suppose if I made my whole entire identity about tribalism, then I would have to feel guilty about what my tribe has done in the past. and also if I am enjoying generational wealth that was stolen from someone else I suppose I should feel guilty about that, but my mom blew all the generational wealth my grandma acquired going to work as an MD while her black nanny took care of her kids.
Show threadCyborg 2-A ✅Jul 30, 2023
I grew up in the midwest, white people almost always know which European country their ancestors departed, and often the actual city. And they'd be bragging about which European country was whiter. Like " oh my family is from Finland, that's hella white. You're from Italy? Not as white, my friend."

But usually AFAIK people with ancestors who departed from the African continent were taken, with no heirlooms or documents, and families split up and heritage and family histories wiped out. Today I suppose there is inexpensive DNA tests that speculate origins but I'm not sure this information can be used to recontruct family bloodlines
Show threadNissa ToltonJul 30, 2023

@futurebird
„[He] who controls the past controls the future. [He] who controls the present controls the past.“

Quelle: https://beruhmte-zitate.de/zitate/698486-george-orwell-who-controls-the-past-controls-the-future-who-con/

Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the…

„Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.“ - George Orwell

Beruhmte-zitate.de
Show threadDebJul 30, 2023
@futurebird Yes, this is a very sad time we've been living in for a bit now...I hope I live long enough to see some changes for the better...Both human, planet and all else living on the planet...
Show threadGlennJul 30, 2023
@futurebird Some of my ancestors in Georgia were slave owners. Others were poor white folk that fought to defend slavery, even though slavery hurt them economically. I've never felt any guilt about this because I wasn't there. People are not feeling guilt but a sense of loss of feeling that their ancestors were "great noble people". They need to grow up.
Show threadPaul CantrellJul 30, 2023
@futurebird Love the meme.
Show threadChris TurnbowJul 30, 2023
@futurebird
Yes. Exactly so, 100%.
Show threadMidLifeBroadJul 30, 2023
@futurebird exactly this! The more truth about our fascist past doesn’t make me feel guilty, but it does make me want to right some wrongs, and to certainly work at putting an end to it.