KayinI guess I'll start using mastodon rather than my NSFW twitter to scream about dumb twitter in interactions but I said 'other genres are just as confusing as fighting games, you just can't hide behind a team to learn' and now someone is arguing with me that MOBAs are more visibly clear and understandable and I want to die
I think a frustrating thing, if I try and untangle the ton of stuff someone dropped on me, is how... I think people compare the most complicated parts of fighting games to the simplest parts of other genres.
Like the person was talking about how hard it is to deal with setplay compared to like, the timing flow of most other games and in my mind like... setplay is pretty advanced??? If someone is new and getting setplayed to death, they're playing the wrong people (and often can't find the right people)
and like don't get me wrong I'm bias against mobas I fucking hate them so much but like, 'MOBAs are confusing!!' isn't some condemnation. It's just a double standard. š
Kat@kayin might just be that fighting games are fast and that's painting a lot of people's expectations.
i know high level tf2 is pretty similar to fighting games in terms of having to know how your opponents respond to what.
i know high level tf2 is pretty similar to fighting games in terms of having to know how your opponents respond to what.
@kayin this is honestly just how any game with pvp works? fighting games just often have more buttons. the other stuff isn't that different
FenoTheFox@kayin source: my and my friends have played exclusively MOBA since original DOTA released so it makes sense to us
@FenoTheFox Or people even saying "FPSs are easy!" YEAH WE'VE ALL BEEN PLAYING THEM FOREVER
@kayin I'm trying to think about what the easiest game to understand in terms of just raw intuition are. I guess I'd say 2d platformers? They're pretty good about making the basic "rules" easy to understand I think. You can go left, go right, jump, and maybe duck if the game's a little WILD. This is assuming that we leave out games that are basically glorified Simon Says games of course. There's also some sadistic platformers.... Kayin. But still.
Mathias Wolfbrok on FGC NetworkSpoiler alert: Call of Duty is hard as nails if youāve never touched Call of Duty and also can give motion sickness (Source: Iāve played Call of Duty once on Xbox 360 during a random gaming night)
Toast Rider@kayin I would have a better chance of defending myself against thirty seconds of fucking Skullgirls pressure than going thirty seconds without dying in any average FPS or moba.
Those genres feel more clear and straightforward to those people because theyāve spent years playing them. Every genre has an internal logic to it, even between specific games and subgenres. Stuff like map awareness, cover, tracking spawn timers for weapons/objectives, build orders, etc. are completely incomprehensible to me but any seasoned FPS/moba player would say those are basic fundamentals. The same would be true if I start talking to them about spacing, whiff punishing, mixups, frame traps, etc. The difficulty isnāt inherent to one genre or another - ANYTHING is going to feel more obvious and more automatic once youāve spent enough time on it.
Those genres feel more clear and straightforward to those people because theyāve spent years playing them. Every genre has an internal logic to it, even between specific games and subgenres. Stuff like map awareness, cover, tracking spawn timers for weapons/objectives, build orders, etc. are completely incomprehensible to me but any seasoned FPS/moba player would say those are basic fundamentals. The same would be true if I start talking to them about spacing, whiff punishing, mixups, frame traps, etc. The difficulty isnāt inherent to one genre or another - ANYTHING is going to feel more obvious and more automatic once youāve spent enough time on it.
@ToastRider And then when someone makes a comparison it's like "In a moba you just gotta click and move around, but in fighting games you need to know FRAME DATA and have EXECUTION" like nah man you're skipping steps, all these genres are waaaay closer to each other than people think š
@kayin starting fighting games with frame data is like starting mobas with turn speed
ZergurshIts a really dumb take once you apply it to other genres. I play strategy games a lot and I can't imagine forcing someone getting into something like TWW3 to learn like:
"Before you start playing, you should know the statline of every single Empire unit in your army and compare them to your opponent's units stats and as you can see your opponent's dwarfs have higher melee defence by 2 but lower melee attack by 5 which means you'll probably win however they also have high armour so if you do the math you're only dealing around 30% damage and you need to...."
Like, some people learn better when breaking things down into a raw numbers game, but other people are just gonna throw mean green Orcs into Chaos Warriors and see what happens, and that's totally fine. Or, in fighting game terms, I'm gonna mash after blocking a big punch from Sol and see what happens, and if it doesn't work I'll try something else.
Button mashing was what Fighting Games were most commonly associated with for me, so its weird hearing people stress about the exact opposite.
"Before you start playing, you should know the statline of every single Empire unit in your army and compare them to your opponent's units stats and as you can see your opponent's dwarfs have higher melee defence by 2 but lower melee attack by 5 which means you'll probably win however they also have high armour so if you do the math you're only dealing around 30% damage and you need to...."
Like, some people learn better when breaking things down into a raw numbers game, but other people are just gonna throw mean green Orcs into Chaos Warriors and see what happens, and that's totally fine. Or, in fighting game terms, I'm gonna mash after blocking a big punch from Sol and see what happens, and if it doesn't work I'll try something else.
Button mashing was what Fighting Games were most commonly associated with for me, so its weird hearing people stress about the exact opposite.
Look Iām sorry but you canāt convince me that, from an outside spectator point of view, this is clearer than āA punches B in the faceā (Also applicable to card games if you donāt know how the card game works or what the cards do)
If anything despite its complexity when playing I find that Tekken is probably one of the easier games to watch, like there are no meters or fireballs or things like that for the most part, itās mostly fistacuffs and at most the guy gets angry, just ignore that Akuma and Geese are in the game
@MathiasWolfbrok My friends for years have sent me MOBA clips like "Check out this cool play I did!!" and I don't think once in my entire life have I ever knew why it was cool or who was even on their team
mauve@kayin one of the things I kept trying to point out to my designer friends is that you can't toss away a genre's 'cruft' and still have the same game with the same appeal after.
Each genre evolves to have these increasingly confusing mechanics because it helps reinforce what both players and designers wanted out of the genre, and you can't simply write them off.