Ian Campbell 🏴Jul 24, 2023

Just saw someone advocating progressive movements organize on the Fediverse.

BE VERY VERY CAREFUL ABOUT SAYING STUFF LIKE THIS.

-Most fediverse tie-ins are not architected to protect you. For instance, Mastodon Direct Messages are not encrypted and admins can access them.

-Most instances are hosted by ordinary people who don't have the time, knowledge, or resources to fight subpoenas in either criminal or civil actions.

Meet here. Support each other. Cheer each other on. Show solidarity, and elevate and amplify each other.

Organize in much more restricted environments, like end-to-end encrypted messengers like Signal.

Show threadKevin Karhan Jul 25, 2023

@neurovagrant no, because #Signal is a #proprietary #SingleVendor / #SingleProvider solition that is subject to #CloudAct and thus can't be secure by design.

If you really want #InfoSec, #OpSec, #ComSec & #ITsec, then #SelfHosting everything is key.

But that'll require #TechLiteracy and may not scale well...

IMHO self-hosting a #Zulip Server works good for organizational structures.

Show threadSeirdyJul 25, 2023

@kkarhan @neurovagrant Turn off Contact Discovery and Signal basically eliminates the need to trust the server. It doesn’t matter what the server is running because all metadata except the recipient is encrypted. Your group names, group participants, reactions, typing notifications, profile pictures, message bodies, etc. are all opaque and indistinguishable.

Matrix and XMPP spew all your metadata across all servers participating in a room, encrypting very little besides message bodies. There are some progressing XEPs to encrypt more metadata, but we shouldn’t rely on platforms like Matrix or XMPP in their current form to hide our metadata because they don’t. Participants, probable cause from linked profiles outside the conversation, timestamps, group information, etc. are all as private as your Fedi DMs.

The only thing that comes close to Signal with something like Tor would be Briar, but I don’t know how well offline messaging works on it. I can’t speak for alternatives like SimpleX since I’m not familiar.

Show threadKevin Karhan Jul 25, 2023

@Seirdy @neurovagrant just use #XMPP over #Tor then...
Also it's not done with "Just use Signal" because #ITsec, #InfoSec, #OpSec & #ComSec are all interlinked.

#Signal is for gullible #TechIlliterates that are too lazy to learn despite being #TechLiterate is part of their job.

Assholes like #GlennGreenwald for example...

Signal will inevitably crash down like #EncroChat and #ANØM before...

Show threadSeirdyJul 25, 2023
@kkarhan @neurovagrant All of the concerns I raised were at the application protocol layer. Tor is a TCP anonymizer.
Show threadKevin Karhan Jul 25, 2023

@Seirdy @neurovagrant use a client that doesn't shit itself out, like #MonoclesChat and #Gajim...

Also unless I can preproducibly built client and server myself I won't trust any app or software at all!

Show threadSeirdyJul 25, 2023

@kkarhan @neurovagrant Ok. Let’s say I use one of those clients. I create a room and my friends, using those clients, join it. Say we all use the same server, and the server gets compromised.

What data is at risk?

  • The name of the room
  • Members of the room
  • Timestamps of encrypted messages
  • Senders of encrypted messages
  • Group member display names
  • Group member profile pictures
  • Description of the room
  • Who sent DMs to whom
  • Most active group members
  • A given message’s sender and recipient.

The full Signal Protocol is far more than Signal’s double-ratchet encryption protocol. It prevents any of this from leaking, and assumes the server has already been compromised. All the server sees is the recipient of a message; the sender is sealed on the application protocol layer.

Show threadKevin Karhan Jul 25, 2023

@Seirdy @neurovagrant You purposefully refuse to accept the core problem:

#Signal is a.#centralozed #SingleVendor / #SingleProvoder solution that is subject to #CloudAct and obviously implementing #Govware #Backdoors.

Why else are all the #tinfoilhat|ed conspiracy theorists on #Telegram and not #Signal??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1thc5DSHwA

The cost of shilling VPN companies is your reputation.

YouTube
Show threadKevin Karhan Jul 25, 2023

@Seirdy @neurovagrant

And since #Signal isn't financed by it's users, it must finance itself somehow...

I.e. #PRISM membership?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVDQEoe6ZWY

This Video Is Sponsored By ███ VPN

I tried to write a more honest VPN commercial. The sponsor wasn't happy about it. • Get ██ days of ███ VPN free at ██████.com/honestThe ASA ruling I referenc...

YouTube
Show threadKevin Karhan Jul 25, 2023

@Seirdy @neurovagrant because when "push comes to shove", admins held at gunpoint will integrate #Govware #Backdoors into the #centralized #SingleVendor / #SingleProvider service...

https://twitter.com/thegrugq/status/1085614812581715968

thaddeus e. grugq (@thegrugq) on X

I’m gonna tell you a secret about “logless VPNs” — they don’t exist. Noone is going to risk jail for your $5/mo https://t.co/Q2aOQJkG4g

X (formerly Twitter)
Show threadKevin Karhan Jul 25, 2023
@Seirdy @neurovagrant just like #ProtonMail did:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCx_G_R0UmQ
ProtonMail Sends User IP and Device Info to Swiss Authorities.

YouTube
Show threadSeirdy

@kkarhan @neurovagrant You have not explained what a data compromised signal server can access.

The Signal protocol assumes the server is already compromised. The protocol assumes that the servers are run by a hostile actor, and hides metadata accordingly.

Jul 25, 2023 at 7:45amWeb
Show threadKevin Karhan Jul 25, 2023

@Seirdy @neurovagrant that is irrelevant for the problem.

If I were to control a PBX, then encrypting your calls only buys your time at best if not allow me to literally MITM stuff since, #NotYourKeysNotYourControl!

Whereas I can exchange keys in #PGP / #MIME and #XMPP - #OMEMO via other ways and actually verify shit instead if #TOFU!

Show threadSeirdyJul 25, 2023

@kkarhan @neurovagrant I…you realize that key exchange and rotation mechanisms used in megolm and OMEMO are borrowed from Double Ratchet, right? Neither protocol adds anything significant, although Matrix removes quite a bit (Matrix lacks strong backwards security, having only forward security (if my understanding of Megolm is correct)).

Where did you read that Signal uses TOFU? Signal is where Double Ratchet was born.

Show threadSeirdyJul 25, 2023

@kkarhan @neurovagrant Moreover, if you were to compromise a key, you’d only be able to read the messages that key decrypts. But forward and backward security will prevent you from using that key to decrypt the full history.

Where are you getting your information from?

Show threadKevin Karhan Jul 25, 2023

@Seirdy @neurovagrant Stop throwing smoke grenades amd answer a simple question:

Why should I ever trust a #centralized #SingleVendor / #SingleProvider "solution" that is not.only.capable.but entirely willing to enfoce #Cyberfacist "restrictions" against it's users.

Just like Signal did...

Or do you believe Moxie's successor would be walking free or even breathing if #Signal was actually secure against the U.S. government?

They ain't decentralized like #Tor...