Mastodawn

Allegro con Fuoco Jul 17, 2023

The PM calling a degree a "rip off" because it doesn't lead to a high-paying job - and this framing being uncritically adopted by the press - is the UK showing it's a country that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66216005

Poor quality university courses face limits on student numbers

Ministers will ask the regulator to restrict numbers on courses that do not have "good outcomes".

BBC News

TallVenti Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking had an argument with a Neanderthal in the pub about the contribution of a sociology degree to GDP.

This is a wide spread opinion. Sadly.

Yma Jul 17, 2023

@TallVenti @nickbwalking He is surely aware that the creators of GDP advised against using it as a measure of success outside of a war economy.

chidi_anagonye Jul 17, 2023

@TallVenti @nickbwalking

Let's not insult Neanderthals.

davidj Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking Education minister Robert Halfon referred this morning (BBC R4 Today) to "poor jobs" as an indicator of rip-off degrees. Did he mean care-workers, transport workers and others who proved their worth to society during COVID. Choosing public service and low pay on graduation does not undervalue the degree - indeed it suggests it may have been of high value to the community.

Amat Jul 17, 2023

@davidj I did a (Fully state funded) degree in the 1980s. (I was also socially educated during this period, Mrs Thatcher anyone?) I then worked for charities working with adults with learning disabilities for many years. This was not a graduate post, and was poorly paid. I suppose I should have found more lucrative work, and ignored the needs of the vulnerable,
to make best use of my expensive education.

davidj Jul 17, 2023

@AmatAnand Amat, I'm sure the people you supported would say you made exactly the right decision. A more lucrative career? For you, maybe, but not (necessarily) for society. The concept of graduate jobs (with certain well defined exceptions) is totally flawed. I'm sure the Warwick University economists who developed it would be the first to accept it's limitations.

Minoru Saba Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking "...UK showing it's a country that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing."

Noticed that attitude in the UK during the Margaret Thatcher years with regards to academic research, but for reasons I could never fathom people in #Japan went crazy over her.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-20695206

The Beatles, Queen, Peter Rabbit, and possibly Kate Bush merited adulation, but why Margaret Thatcher?!

Margaret Thatcher: A Japanese icon?

Why are so many Japanese people fascinated with Margaret Thatcher?

BBC News

Lstn2urmama 🇨🇦Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking ...this happens everywhere ...there is no guarantee there will be jobs in the end ...many have had to change education or type of job ...

Natasha Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking Surely this reflects more the lack of graduate jobs rather than a degree being a “rip off”? Is this purely because the students then can’t pay back their student loans quick enough?! Also those graphs on “lifetime wages” show a shocking gap between male and female especially for economics and medicine graduates of >£100k.

Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking I suspect it's more about imposing cuts on universities because "nobody there votes Tory" as was stated last week.

Andrew Harris Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking I presume that Sunak would regard the education delivered by art schools as a rip off. In the late 50s and 60s many British took advantage of this route to higher education, many didn't even complete their courses, but what they produced became a multi billion £ industry - pop and rock music. I doubt that the government of the day saw that as an outcome.
#ukpolitics

Jonathan Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking having worked in the university sector for many years, one thing is definitely true, institutions are very good at proposing new modules and programmes and marketing them but very poor at turning them off if they don’t recruit or students don’t progress. These are very expensive to keep on the books and often have poor outcomes. Part of the problem is removing any programme is seen as contentious by staff and students. You can’t run a business like that.

rob Jul 17, 2023

@Yell0wbag @nickbwalking you've hit on a big issue there. Are universities businesses? (They're being run like businesses nowadays, but, IMO, where they're being run badly, that is one of the reasons.

Jonathan Jul 17, 2023

@robparsons @nickbwalking I think they are hybrids between businesses and state-run institutions but unintentionally. Past governments have edged towards a business model but haven't let go of state controls over funding and numbers. Students are also split over this. They don't like thinking that unis are businesses but are quick to quote consumer legislation & seek legal advice to get compensation if they think they're not getting value for money.

Jonathan Jul 17, 2023

@robparsons @nickbwalking of course the other issue is overseas students are full fee paying so are treated as business income. Universities also run their own small businesses and / or engage in offering commercial services such as consulting. The majority of income is student led but some science / engineering institutions spin out companies and there is pressure to increase income streams.

rob Jul 18, 2023

@Yell0wbag @nickbwalking overseas students - big issue, but illustrative of the fact that universities are not businesses. If they were, they'd take in the overseas students and dump the rest. Businesses don't cross subsidise unless they intend to profit in the future from the part that is currently being subsidised.

Jonathan Jul 18, 2023

@robparsons @nickbwalking that's exactly the level of discussion I sat through many times - increasing overseas at the expense of home.

MarjorieR Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking Note that this is not even market-led:
If this government (as they claim) really believed in the market then they would leave it up to prospective students to decide what was a good degree to do, given how much it will cost them.

MarjorieR Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking added to which the cost of providing an arts degree is much less than STEM or medical degrees, but currently they all get charged the same £9,000 a year in tuition fees.

costrike Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking "The idea originated in a 2018 review set up under then-Prime Minister Theresa May. The same review also suggested that more money needed to be pumped into education and that tuition fees needed to be cut - but these are not being implemented."
Of course.

Epistatacadam Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking I'be always been curious when the education as training for work(slave owning) mentality was going to return to the UK. Education is about discovering for yourself how to think & be a full part of society to the best of your ability. If you falsely equate utility with income, you end up with poorly paid care services.
Now remind me does UK have a problem with recruitment into care services to meet the needs of an aging nation.... The training focus is to blame, IMHO.

Dave Mc Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking university taught me many key skills and about the wider world. But the subject related knowledge it gave me was of limited use. I did an engineering degree and my first job was in an engineering firm. But my job for the next 10 years literally used only a few hours of technical knowledge from my entire degree. But approaches to problems were transferable. My career moved over the following years and now has very little to do with my degree. I still maintain it was very worthwhile.

Rachel Woodlock Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking given that it’s almost impossible to get a secure permanent job in academia after doctoral studies, perhaps we should consider all doctoral programmes as under-performing and scrap the lot.

Beeks Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking maybe he was talking about American degrees? 😥

will_shake Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking am I the only person who thinks this is an strange hill for Sunak to die on when we can all see so many real problems to tackle.

Ebly Pamplemousse Jul 17, 2023

@will_shake @nickbwalking it distracts the press/media from all those problems for today. And, as a result, leads to the public talking about "Mickey Mouse" degrees thereby distracting them from also talking about the real problems we're all facing.
Job done, as far as Sunak is concerned.

chidi_anagonye Jul 17, 2023

I'm kind of on the fence about this.

Say a university offers a degree in some complete nonsense, like zombie studies. As in treating zombies like they are real. Shouldn't that be reigned in?

On the other hand, it sets a dangerous precedent that could be a repeat of Galileo.

I think the best thing to do is maybe collect and publish data and let it speak for itself.

Patrick H. Lauke Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking we should stop letting investment wankers have a say on anything outside of banking. their world view is skewed (well, even when it comes to finance)

doublejay Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking i thought they were a government that did like to interfere ?

Rab Bruce’s Spider Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking Typical of the BBC to reinforce the Tory message.

rob Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking and the BBC's headline is awful - completely buying into Tory spin instead of critically analysing it.

Ian M. Noone Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking
It's a way of ensuring a vast underclass and a critical lack of essential, yet undervalued, personnel.

Kevin R.Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking "Knows the price of everything and the value of nothing" is the modern "bro" ethos in a nutshell. Tech bros, finance bros (or as we used to call them, yuppies), you name it. Walking parodies of finance capitalism straight out of a Bret Easton Ellis novel -- and look at how many view Patrick Bateman as a role model, ironically or not.

It's why the only cultural achievements they've produced are Bitcoin memes, NFTs, and LLM algo-dribble.

alternative_be✅🖖🏻Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking Strange criteria for educational standards. A ripoff to me is something else. Many years ago, in my old hometown, we had something called #EuropeanUniversity Which meant that degrees were in fact sort of bought and that students learned nothing but got a worthless shitty piece of paper stating someone had an MBA, when for real the courses didn’t meet the educational or intellectual standards. And that’s totally different from what the article says.

Don Hawkins - W7DAH Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking Just like in the “Colonies” 😎

Tracy Hall Jul 17, 2023

"If you're not taking scraps from your overlords (however large they seem to you), what value are you anyway?"

GungJoe Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking I agree with the sentiment but I don’t think it’s fair to label this claim to all of the UK when what you mean is politicians and press. Most of which all right leaning too, the UK is much more than that.

tptigger Jul 17, 2023

@nickbwalking It's even worse--Agriculture is on the low end for high paying jobs. Farmers are essential

Andy Piper Jul 17, 2023

@tokyo_0 absolutely infuriating, from every angle.

Dieu Jul 18, 2023

@nickbwalking to be fair, adopting this policy a little earlier might have saved us from the Internet.

Empiricism Jul 21, 2023

@nickbwalking @pvonhellermannn

And what are the highest paying jobs doing to the environment? #ClimateCrisis

Whilst l don't listen to any of the PM's speeches, writing, etc, because there is only so much bullshit l will tolerate, it sounds like the PM is using gaslighting to discredit people that have a degree.

His ignorant greenwashing government would be far more informed if they had science degrees (the majority).

The Tories have climate change deniers & invest in fossil fuels.