Mastodawn

Antifa International

"One thing I don't think people realize is that in arguments about human rights, it's not about trying to persuade the other party. It's not about them at all. They've already made up their mind.

It's about persuading the audience.

If I call out my teacher on being homophobic I'm not trying to change his opinion. I'm trying to convince any closeted kids in the room that they're not the monsters he's made them out to be.

If I argue with my aunt about how racist she's being it's not because I expect her to change her mind. It's because I'm hoping to god my cousin's kids hear and learn that maybe skin color doesn't mean what she says it means.

People will try to hush you and say 'they're not going to change their minds, don't bother' but it's not about them. It was never about them."

-sepulchritude

Yudhvir Jul 17, 2023

@antifaintl that’s a very good point. When one says “good morning” or opens the door for you, they are not trying to do you a favor. They are indicating to you that they want the same respect back.

AT-AT Assault 🏳️‍⚧️Jul 17, 2023

@savera @antifaintl

>When one says “good morning” or opens the door for you, they are not trying to do you a favor. They are indicating to you that they want the same respect back.

Naw. I do it because I want to be a kind person. It's nice to have the favor returned, but I don't do it for quid pro quo.

Catherine Schmidt Jul 18, 2023

@savera @antifaintl as a young woman I figured it was so a guy could look at your ass. Holding doors open should be about respect and kindness.

Ursidinoj/The Bjornsdottirs Jul 18, 2023

@savera @antifaintl ["in general" needed]

Harry Davies ✅️Jul 17, 2023

@antifaintl what does antifa mean

AT-AT Assault 🏳️‍⚧️Jul 17, 2023

@frozencat @antifaintl

ANTI-FA
ANTI-FAscist.

Kagan MacTane (he/him)Jul 17, 2023

@frozencat It's short for "anti-fascist". Broadly speaking, anyone who opposes the rising tide of fascism in Western democracies and worldwide; more narrowly, people who are taking action against fascist groups and legislation. @antifaintl

Kerri Levine Jul 17, 2023

Chris Real Jul 17, 2023

@RushGirl @antifaintl

When people are frozen in their feelings from the fear of being the first, it only takes one 'bubblepopper' to empower the rest.

Bubblepopping—it's not a job, it's a calling.

Kerri Levine Jul 18, 2023

@_chris_real @antifaintl

This is equally effective.

Maybe more...

Tam Jul 17, 2023

@RushGirl @antifaintl a mantra to live by

Lord H Dec 10, 2023

@RushGirl @antifaintl There are millions of people around the world saying Israel must stop the Gaza genocide. Standing up is not working.

dangrsmind Jul 17, 2023

@antifaintl exactly

Beausotherbrotherdisowned Jul 17, 2023

utopianfiat Jul 17, 2023

@Beausotherbrotherdisowned @antifaintl

Goober King Jul 17, 2023

@Beausotherbrotherdisowned @antifaintl And this, class, is an example of bad faith interpretation of the OP, as nowhere does anyone suggest jailing or silencing anyone. They simply believe that making them feel shame or guilt for their opinions is equivalent to cancelling them.

Shantell Powell Jul 17, 2023

@antifaintl FWIW, sometimes it does change the one doing the offensive shit. ~20 years ago, someone called me out on a bunch of anti-trans stuff I was spewing. Because of how I was raised, I didn’t know I was doing anything wrong. It made me realize that trans people were real people, and not the clowns pop culture had made them out to be. It smartened me up, and I’m grateful for that—especially since I am nonbinary, myself, and didn’t know how to express it at the time.

A Republic, while we kept it Jul 17, 2023

@antifaintl Absolutely. It's always about the audience. This is why, when someone on a forum invites me to debate them in DMs, I refuse.

NerdGirlInVR 💜🇺🇸🌎🐘💜Jul 17, 2023

@antifaintl thank you, this needs to be said more! #Boosted

acb Jul 17, 2023

@antifaintl @cstross Or, as @JuliusGoat put it, it’s about changing the atmosphere: https://armoxon.substack.com/p/one-about-the-atmosphere

One About The Atmosphere

Want to change minds? Here's a tip: stop trying. Change the atmosphere instead.

The Reframe

Anthony Sorace Jul 17, 2023

@antifaintl @Flux This is important not just for whether/when to engage, but *how*. It’s often better to address the “audience” directly and deliver counter-messaging than head-to-head refutations of likely bad faith arguments. The head-to-head is often tempting (and sometimes more satisfying), but isn’t the job.

Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis Jul 18, 2023

I agree and I disagree. Back channeling disagreement can be a powerful way of undermining fascist messaging, and is a totally valid approach.

But the fact that it is a valid approach must never be allowed to become an excuse not to speak up and confront injustice. "Well I'll just talk to the kids later when he's not around" can be an excuse for cowardice, and, pragmatically, leads to the truth being a dirty secret, skulking around in the shadows, like it's afraid of raising its chin or its voice.

@antifaintl @Flux

Anthony Sorace Jul 18, 2023

@siderea @antifaintl @Flux Oh for sure. I wasn’t talking about “after the fact”, although that can be valid when safety is a concern. I mean loudly and visibly disrupting the speaker, but addressing the same people he is, rather than him.

A month or so ago, some “gays go to hell” types were pre-walking a parade route I was at, spreading their crap via megaphone. I walked into the street next to him and started shouting, but directed at the audience. Loud and visible, but not “for” him.

Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis Jul 18, 2023

Sure, but that's not an argument, which is what the OP was about. And I think what the OP was saying is hugely right, hugely important, and something that makes a lot of well-meaning people on our side, for some reason, very uncomfortable, so they try to change the topic away from it, or try to yeah-but it to invalidate it, or otherwise squirrel their way away from confronting the truth of it. So I think it is a point that bears stating and reemphasizing.

@antifaintl @Flux

Shambolic Matter Jul 17, 2023

@antifaintl This cuts both ways: shithead fascists with glib talking points don't care about being correct. They care about turning the audience into more fascists.

Antifa International Jul 18, 2023

@xorn
100%!

Samhain Night Jul 17, 2023

@antifaintl It also lets the teacher/aunt/whoever know that
1) You are not silently agreeing with them (which is how bigots interpret silence)
2) Their hate is not socially acceptable
3) There will be consequences for expressing that hate

jpwkeeper Jul 17, 2023

@antifaintl I don't necessarily agree with you.
I think you can change people's minds, but not quickly. Instead, you plant seeds of truth and water them every now and then and let them grow. It might take years, and it might fail entirely.
Just like how disinformation works, but for the truth instead of lies.

Antifa International Jul 18, 2023

@jpwkeeper That is a totally valid point!

Inkstainedmags Jul 17, 2023

@antifaintl This is the only reason I bother to respond to posts with trash opinions.

Susan Larson ♀️🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️🌈Jul 17, 2023

Ding ding ding we have a winner!

When engaging in a debate or discussion, it's crucial to focus on presenting a well-reasoned rebuttal rather than attempting to convince the other side. The primary aim should be to provide counterarguments and alternative perspectives, allowing undecided individuals to make informed decisions.

Susan Larson ♀️🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️🌈Jul 17, 2023

By respectfully challenging the arguments put forth by the opposing side, you can highlight any potential flaws, gaps in reasoning, or alternative evidence that may have been overlooked. This approach contributes to a more balanced and comprehensive discussion, enabling undecided individuals to evaluate different viewpoints and reach their own conclusions.

Susan Larson ♀️🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️🌈Jul 17, 2023

Moreover, by presenting a well-constructed rebuttal, you have the opportunity to showcase your own perspective or provide evidence that supports your position. This helps undecided individuals understand your viewpoint and potentially influences them in your favor.

Susan Larson ♀️🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️🌈Jul 17, 2023

The ultimate goal is to foster a constructive dialogue rather than engage in a confrontational or adversarial manner. This allows all sides to be heard and evaluated, increasing the likelihood that undecided individuals will carefully consider your arguments and potentially support your stance.

Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis Jul 18, 2023

@Susan_Larson_TN

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think logical argument is a wonderful tool but at the end of the day what wins hearts and minds, are the appeals - and assaults - of the heart. Logic is but one arrow in that quiver.

The art of debate - that is to say the art of arguing with one person to convince an audience of others - is, fundamentally, the art not of being logically right, but the art of making the other side look some sort of bad: silly or stupid or mean or cruel or wicked or unjust or unfair or weak or self-serving or whatever.

This is not hard with fascists, because they typically are silly and stupid and mean and cruel and wicked and unjust and unfair and weak and self-serving and so forth and so on. Our job, in arguing with them, is merely to bring it forth and shine a light on it.

The difficulty comes in that they aren't going to just sit there and take it. They will offer a spirited defense.

Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis Jul 18, 2023

@Susan_Larson_TN

And, as well they know, the best defense is a good offense, and they will do everything they can to give offence. They understand the terms of engagement, as our side so rarely does, and will be endeavoring to make you look silly and stupid and wicked and sinful and so forth and so on.

The naive, who innocently and a bit foolishly believe that the way to win an argument with a fascist is to simply be more logically correct, and to bring a more thorough argument, are often easily made to look foolish.

Don't get me wrong: calm, methodical logic serenely delivered can be marvelously effective rhetoric. But if you don't understand that you're using it as weapon you are unlikely to wield it well; and if you do not understand you are using it as a weapon, you are unlikely to understand that it is but one weapon among many - foreclosing upon the possibility of choosing the most effective weapon for the fight.

Antifa International Jul 18, 2023

@Susan_Larson_TN

Hard no to that, Susan.

"When you argue that fascists should be defeated through debate what you're actually suggesting is that vulnerable minorities should have to endless argue for their right to exist and that at no point should the debate be considered over and won."
-Michael J. Dolan

Antifa International Jul 18, 2023

@Susan_Larson_TN
We don't debate fascists. Ever.

nyakojiru Jul 17, 2023

@antifaintl Fascist Poetry

chicating Jul 18, 2023

@antifaintl David Simon calls this "rallying the sane"but he also seems to enjoy the tussle.

Catherine Schmidt Jul 18, 2023

@antifaintl love this…

LukefromDC Jul 18, 2023

@antifaintl Sometimes the argument is over and it's time to stop worrying about convincing anyone, and start worrying about how to directly put an end to the attacks on human rights.

PoliticalPuffin in the UK Jul 18, 2023

@antifaintl Bravo! 👏👍This is how I see things, albeit in a more broader sense & view point.

This applies to politics in general. It has value to push back those seeking to dominate us and to preserve their status quo.

There is a reason we need education, great education. To give the next generation the tools to fight reactionary politics anywhere everywhere and to replace / take up the baton from olds like me 👍

((( David "Kahomono" Frier )))Jul 18, 2023

@antifaintl Thissie this THIS! When arguing against fascists and/or religious bigots, I always consider that the real audience for my remarks is the audience, not the dingaling with whom I am playing pigeon chess.

DoomsdaysCW Jul 18, 2023

@antifaintl This! 💯!

The Werewolf Jul 22, 2023

@antifaintl I agree in principle, but... if the only way you express your view is by attacking those who do not share it (even if you're justified), the audience may come to wonder if you have any real points, rather just like fighting, because that's literally all they see of your perspective.

Bizarrely, it gives the opposition the chance to seem more rational.

Perhaps there's a third way: talk to the audience.

MollyNYC Jul 29, 2023

Fair point, but you might not want to give up hope for these people. I don’t know your teacher or your aunt, but generally, people will automatically argue back if you put them on the defensive.
Sometimes though (not always), after your points have had time to percolate through their brains, they might grudgingly accept some of them.
(Damned if they’ll admit it to YOU, though.)