Mastodawn

Ettel 🇺🇦Jul 13, 2023

https://youtu.be/kDJ8rSyaYdE
You just need to remember these #facts:
1. #Poland backstabbed independent #Ukraine in 1920 and in 1921 annexed #Lviv just like #Russian #USSR did to Poland in 1939. On occupied by Poland AND #USSR #ukrainian territories BOTH countries established political, cultural and physical terror against #Ukrainian nationals.
2. #Ukrainian #nationalist Stepan #Bandera is a hero. He and whole his family was imprisoned by #Poland and #USSR governments as early as 1930th.

How nationalist movements paved Ukraine’s way to freedom

YouTube

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 13, 2023

@Ettel I’m not that into it and very often defend/explain Ukrainian independence struggle to my compatriots who are demonstrating selective memory and all too flexible morality.

#Bandera was both a hero of #Ukraine and a leader of a movement that committed heinous (war) crimes against civilians.

Yes, #Poland colonized Ukraine and decolonization was the only moral outcome.

No, you cannot justify killing civilians and cannot call it heroism. It’s just the opposite, no matter his motives.

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 13, 2023

@Ettel There are independent sources corroborating what I just stated.

I do NOT trust Ukrainian nor Polish sources on that matter. Those tend to be painfully biased.

@oktawian Unfortunately, true + #Ukraine didn't research much in this topic ( #Poland did + politicized it).
I personally think that:
1. We need to know how many of killed by #UIA poles in Volyn were actually legitimate targets ( #german #nazi collaborators, members of #nazist administration). Because we 💯 know some were.
2. The real numbers are in the middle :around 50k killed poles,5-7k killed Ukrainians).
3. The role of #ArmoyaKrajova and #polish #german #nazi battalions need more visibility

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 13, 2023

@Ettel Definitely Poles have to wake up to the reality where we did out share of evil. Only then we have a chance to reflect and not to repeat it.

Polish history as taught in our schools is a terrible joke. Biased to a comical degree.

I don’t want to talk numbers or motives.
Civilians were killed by both sides. Running from that fact won’t do us any good.

I’m ashamed of every single Polish crime against Jews, Ukrainians, Belarusians and others. No excuses.

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 13, 2023

@Ettel We HAVE TO admit where #Polish people committed crimes and work hard to restore justice. It will not however bring back lost life and destroyed communities by colonialism.

Some #Ukrainian people of the past have blood on their hands too. The village where I’m from was full of people forced to move from the East, including Wołyń.

I’ve personally heard stories of children being torn apart, first person accounts. Unbelievable cruelty.

You have to open your eyes. It happened. Can you?

Ettel 🇺🇦Jul 13, 2023

@oktawian Oh, I don't deny it. Actually Polish parliament can imprison Ukrainian history professors who do not agree that Volyn massacre was an act of genocide (voted 2018).
Legally.
What I can see clearly, are NYT articles on UIA and Bandera. I am always asking why they are not starting with Armya Krajowa.
That's the answer I am getting, with my eyes opened wide.

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 13, 2023

@Ettel This clearly illegal measure and you can say everything you want.

Polish government is embarrassing us forcing people like that. This is nonsense.

In the end you will obviously win in ECHR.

AK had some war criminals in their ranks, yes, whataboutism again.
Criminals are NOT my heroes.

Ettel 🇺🇦Jul 13, 2023

@oktawian
Maybe they aren't your personal heroes, but Armya Krajowa ARE national heroes of Poland. I don't think it wrong. For Poland they are heroes. Not ideal ones, but definitely heroes.
That photo I took in Warsaw.
I think, as Poland CAN, obviously, be proud of them, why Ukraine cannot be proud of UIA? At least OUN UPA indeed killed many more nazis than AK and were quite successful in their military operations, despite zero support from anyone at all( AK had that from Allies, BTW).

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 13, 2023

@Ettel I mean we can be proud of most of them but very openly pointing at those who didn’t live up to moral standards.

My grand grand father’s brother fought in AK. If I learned that he or his comrades killed or tortured Ukrainian civilians I wouldn’t be proud anymore. That would be a terrible shame, forever.

Did Bandera personally kill civilians? I don’t know. If yes he is not a hero material. Did he approve any of the atrocities? Same thing.

Nothing can wash away blood stains of this kind.

Ettel 🇺🇦Jul 13, 2023

@oktawian We do not have any evidences that Stepan Bandera personally managed to kill any civilians before June 1941, and we know for sure he didn't have capabilities to do so from July 1941 till late 1944 as all of this time he was in the Nazi prisons and concentration camps.
However the fact his name is widely used by Russian (and polish) propaganda for 70 years, instead of admitting crimes of Russian (and Polish) armies, is telling us a lot.

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 14, 2023

@Ettel I’m afraid that may not be true. But this is not my job to convince you. Also I may be wrong too.

“According to Timothy Snyder, the ethnic cleansing of the Poles was exclusively the work of the extremist Bandera faction of the OUN, rather than its Melnyk faction or other Ukrainian political or religious organizations.”

And you can’t find more ardent Ukrainophile than Snyder.

Bandera is responsible for ethnic cleansing and atrocities committed by OUN. That is my personal assessment.

Ettel 🇺🇦Jul 14, 2023

@oktawian Personally responsible? While in solitary confinement in Sachsenhausen for 3 years during these events?
That's not how it works, sorry.

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 14, 2023

@Ettel Now, you can say Polish side did similar atrocities although at smaller scale, which is likely due to being outnumbered in Ukraine.

But you cannot lie to me that Stepan Bandera and OUN are innocent.

Or _maybe_ you agree that he is guilty of all of the mentioned atrocities but you condone killing civilians, woman and children of your perceived enemy in “certain circumstances”.

Then in my eyes you are no better than Nazis, Stalinists and modern days Putin minions.

Ettel 🇺🇦Jul 14, 2023

@oktawian If Stepan Bandera, being at that moment of time in German Nazi concentration camp for 2 years (with no mail/human contact at all), has any responsibility for Volyn tragedy, because of his opinions about Poles; the same responsibility should be shared with Polish government, courts, prosecutors who sent him and his family to prison 15 years before all of these events, just for being Ukrainian.
You can't blame person for war crimes he didn't commit personally. He has 💯 alibi.

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 14, 2023

@Ettel This is a beautiful dilemma!

He wasn’t there at Wolyn massacre. True. Was Hitler in Aushwitz? Or Stalin in Katyń? No. Alibi! /s

He shaped the organization. As a leader/co-creator of OUN he cannot be called both hero AND innocent.

You have to decide.

Either he is “only a famous concentration camp prisoner and martyr, nothing to do with anything” OR fighter for freedom and war criminal.

And he did his share of crime before imprisonment. Maybe that part is so honorable? Idk

Ettel 🇺🇦Jul 14, 2023

@oktawian It's not a dilemma at all; it's a paradox.
Stepan #Bandera is not involved in Volyn tragedy at all. His official article and statutory documents do not contain ethnic cleansing as a part of action program (unlike for Adolf Hitler's, the one you magically entered into conversation).
You can't hold him accountable for "ideology support" of that either (at least legally).
Staying in concentration camp, he had zero influence on the org's actions in 1943, unlike Stalin in 1933-1937.

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 14, 2023

@Ettel It is a dilemma and you choose to avoid it. You have every right. Not the hill I want to die on. Again, I fully accept possibility that my knowledge may be lacking.

We do agree that Ukrainian people and the nation of that time, can be named responsible for Volyn atrocities, right?

You are not defending the killing and torturing of Polish civilians as part of fighting for freedom?

We cannot just start killing our neighbors when we decide we don’t want them anymore on our land, correct?

Ettel 🇺🇦Jul 14, 2023

@oktawian I believe we agreed that killing civilians who are members of the foreign occupation administration is a legitimate action of the guerilla insurgent armies fighting on their own territory.
OUN UIA was killing Polish, Ukrainian and Russian Nazi and Soviet collaborators, both military and civilians, where they could and I fully support that.
Killing other civilians is bad, true. However.
I believe the reasons of why it happened are not discussed enough (1930 terror against Ukrainians)

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 14, 2023

@Ettel So like killing Zelensky now is a legitimate action? If you ask them Kyiv is Russian territory (bonkers).

Ownership of land is more complicated than we want to admit. You cannot just say which land is rightfully yours. This is the most ridiculous concept.

Only soldiers in active combat service are legitimate targets in war.

Ettel 🇺🇦Jul 14, 2023

@oktawian Zelensky is at his own land, didn't invade Russia.
We either respect international borders or not, you can't say Kyiv is Russian because they said so. As now they said Zaporizhzhia is theirs , which they don't control. Warsaw and Tallinn are next, regardless of if they control or not.
Killing Russian army soldiers, members of occupation administration on occupied Ukrainian territories (can be ofany nation, military or civilians), by both Ukrainian military and civilians, IS legitimate

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 14, 2023

@Ettel I know that. You know that. Tell that to the Russian people.

Wasn’t Volyn recognized within international border of Poland back then?

I mean we have to decide if intentionally recognized border legal status is important in assessing war crimes or not.

It is for me.

Killing Zelensky today would be a crime. Killing Polish administration representatives or police officers in (admittedly colonized) Ukraine was a crime too. Legally speaking.

Right?

Ettel 🇺🇦Jul 14, 2023

@oktawian
Wasn't fully legal, as Poland did to Ukraine the same Russia did to Poland in 1939: invaded in a breach of recognized international borders (for Galicia it was grey area in 1918).
You probably think OUN were smith like Nazis with gas chambers, killing poor civilians. Nope.
Beautiful song, describing OUN killing Ukrainian national who betrayed their own and joined Soviet Russia administration 1946. Polish Nazi collaborators were killed by OUN in a similar way.
https://youtu.be/LWLDchefRPo

Машингвери, штурмгевери

YouTube

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 14, 2023

@Ettel You are twisting and turning.

That’s enough for today I guess 🙂

Thanks for civil discourse despite our disagreement 🤝

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 14, 2023

@Ettel Better to call crime a crime without even saying what was the nationality of perpetrators. It’s always a crime.

Hopefully after Ukraine won the war we will have opportunity to restore justice.

Ettel 🇺🇦Jul 14, 2023

@oktawian I don't think killing invading army soldiers or members of occupation administration is a crime, even if those are civilians. Nuremberg trials confirmed that too.
Why it is difficult for you to accept? Think a bit.

Is it because it was Poland that first invaded Ukraine and set occupation administration there?
Then Nazi Germans did the same.Then Soviet Russia. Of course majority in these administrations were civilians. They were legitimate targets for resistance and insurgent armies.

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 14, 2023

@Ettel Notice one detail. Poland never invaded. Countries do not invade. They always do it all under some sort of positive umbrella. To take under protection. Set free the oppressed people. Bullshit like that is peddled to the regular people. Russian propaganda is doing the same now.

Killing a tax clerk or some police officer because someone else decided decades earlier to “take under protection”?

Insane. Evil. Criminal.
No agreement here✋

Ettel 🇺🇦Jul 14, 2023

@oktawian
Think about that : Stepan #Bandera is all of that. At the same moment.
Martyr, for Ukraine independence, YES.
A hero and legend, going through polish prisons to Nazi concentration camps most of his life; being killed by Russians; with his name demonized by all of those responsible for ethnic cleansing and political terror against Ukrainians (namely : Nazi Germans, Poland 1920-1944, Soviet Russia 1918-1991, 'new Russia' 1991- .. current time).
War criminal: maybe. Not enough evidence.

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 14, 2023

@Ettel I mean that is my entire point.

If someone is a war criminal, he would not be my hero no matter what and frankly I’m scared of people who would consider such person a hero.

It’s a really difficult topic and I’m just a random software developer, not a historian. I don’t even particularly like history because it’s so often falsified for political purposes.

Probably 99% of everything I know is either not true or half true.

Ettel 🇺🇦Jul 14, 2023

@oktawian You can read more,as you can read polish,and with some exercises, will be able to read ukrainian language too.
I do get that history is really sad, grey,never black and white.
And the fact you can be hated for the reasons your parents were settled in the house of executed Ukrainian family,for example,is disgusting.You were a child,did nothing wrong personally,was born after it all happened.
But we can teach our kids better.For that we must know history better than it's told in schools.

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 13, 2023

@Ettel There is a twist.

We moved in into a regular #German folks’ homes in Silesia. I have empathy for them too. Mostly the kids. I’ve met one that lived there actually before the war.

That must’ve been horrible experience. Being thrown out of your entire known environment because your parents lost a war.

Ettel 🇺🇦Jul 13, 2023

@oktawian That's not because their parents LOST the war. That's because their parents STARTED the war AND, after murdering MILLIONS of same children but other ethnicity (Jews, Ukrainians, Poles, Gypsies..), LOST IT.
The context IS important. It wasn't peaceful Germany attacked by cruel Poland. It was vice versa. German kids were living good, because Jew kids were sent to gas chambers.
A:
I don't have much pity. I won't have much pity toward Russian children when Russia will lose this war, too.

Oktawian Chojnacki Jul 13, 2023

@Ettel I can only imagine what you feel when your friends and family are being killed and injured. The horror.

Culpable people must be punished but their kids? I don’t know, man. I hope you reconsider.

Ettel 🇺🇦Jul 13, 2023

@oktawian We can agree here.
I am sorry that none of what you mentioned will happen in reality anytime soon ( normal school books on history etc ).
But, you know, I think at least that part of history lesson was learned by Poland : backstabbing Ukraine is bad, and will become your worst nightmare soon enough. One way or the other or both.