Mastodawn

Jim Clifford Jul 8, 2023

@BrentToderian We’ve known this approach works for close to 20 years (at least); Toronto had pilot projects back around 2004/5. It is an active choice to keep people in poverty to avoid the perceived moral hazard of giving people decent lives without “earning” it.

MsMerope Jul 8, 2023

@BrentToderian good grief, the amount of money that would be saved by reducing the amount of fires caused [intentionally and accidentally] by the unhoused would more than offset any expenditures. I think almost every fire we got called out for in 2022 was related to camps or squatting.

@lisamelton @BrentToderian The only reason it works is because Finland has a smaller population. In the US, it could never work plus our cultures are very different.

Narfinger Jul 8, 2023

@gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian which cultural difference is important for this? And why would this not scale with population?

@Narfinger @lisamelton @BrentToderian Do you really expect American to just be content with less? That's just not who we are. Fins are happy because they don't necessarily care about being millionaires while we in America are all about the benjamins also, the Fins treat their teachers well which leads to an over all pretty good nation. Oh, and lack of mass shootings. Totally opposite here in the US.

Error 418: clomads is a teapot Jul 8, 2023

@lisamelton @Narfinger @gocu54 @BrentToderian so you’re saying we shouldn’t try? Because…????

@Narfinger @BrentToderian @lisamelton @clomads I'm saying its foolhardy. The only way its gonna work is if the old guard republicans leave office or die off.

Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis Jul 15, 2023

@gocu54

I both agree with you and disagree with you. Our culture is the problem. But cultures can be changed. Our culture *must* be changed - it's the only way anything can ever get better. But culture change is one of the hardest things to bring about and it's a very, very long-game play. It takes generations. Many generations.

But that's what the labor organizers and the Abolitionists and the Suffragists and the civil rights movements (plural) were all up to. The effort started more than a century ago. We need to keep faith and push on with the effort knowing we're doing it for our great grand kids, and we're not going to see the fruits of it ourselves.

@Narfinger @BrentToderian @lisamelton @clomads

Darwin Woodka Jul 8, 2023

@gocu54 @Narfinger @lisamelton @BrentToderian Ever consider you're what needs to change about America?

yaygya Jul 8, 2023

@Narfinger @gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian plus, the USA is made up of these subnational units that are like countries called "states". The population of these states is about on par with European countries. For example, why can't, say, Maryland eliminate homelessness, when both a country about its population (Finland) and double its population and area (Jordan) can easily do so?

Kathryn Jul 9, 2023

@yaygya @Narfinger @gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian
Why can't Maryland do this? Because it doesn't have borders. If they gave away houses in Maryland, every poor person on the east coast would move there, and the working citizens of Maryland cannot afford to support that many people. Any solution has to be national.

yaygya Jul 9, 2023

@Kathryn934 @Narfinger @gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian agreed that solutions do have to be national, otherwise the burden ends up falling on certain states, like California due to many states sending their homeless population there. Although, regarding your point on borders, Finland doesn't have them either; it's an EU member and in the Schengen Area.

Grumble Jul 8, 2023

@gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian How land area make a difference here? It's not like there's thousands of unhoused people in the middle of Montana, 100 miles from anywhere. Most of the unhoused are in urban and suburban areas where there's ample housing nearby.

The US has plenty of empty houses. The reason we don't use them is because of paying the owners, not because housing doesn't exist.

As for cultures... sure - it sounds like the Finnish culture values human dignity more than property rights.

@grumble209 @lisamelton @BrentToderian Yeah but its more than just real estate space we're dealing with. You're talking about developing programs that will never be supported in a bipardison way. It's just not happening.

Grumble Jul 8, 2023

@gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian Ah, so the issues with housing the unhoused in the US aren't related to our geography, or to our culture, but to the ruling plutocrats who set policy for our two major political parties?

Now *that* is an analysis I can agree with.

@grumble209 @lisamelton @BrentToderian Yes, essentially. All they're going to do is make promises and never keep them. That's politicians for you.

Grumble Jul 8, 2023

@gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian Our bent judges declared in* Citizens United *that money is speech. And if our congress is any indication, money is very compelling speech indeed.

Apparently money is a lot more compelling than unhoused folks freezing to death within miles of empty rooms.

If there's a difference in Finnish versus US culture, it's that most folks in the US seem ok with this situation.

@grumble209 @lisamelton @BrentToderian It's not that I'm okay with it personally but doing something tangible about it would be a fruitless war.

Mastomom Jul 8, 2023

@gocu54
And yet, some cities are doing something about it. It's true that we aren't likely to get bipartisan support, but that's largely because one faction sees any assistance as a hand out rather than a hand up. Making sure people have housing is a net benefit for a number of reasons, including (and perhaps most dramatically) reductions in healthcare costs.

@robatmo Try telling that to congress. The government is great at taking your money. They absolutely suck at spending it.

Greg Stolze Jul 8, 2023

@gocu54 @grumble209 @lisamelton @BrentToderian "Americans are bad and dumb, and can never become good or smart." Got it.

@grumble209 @lisamelton @BrentToderian @GregStolze Considering how the supreme court makes their decisions, can you blame me for having second thoughts about republicans specifically? I just didn't want to be open with that because I didn't want to offend half the population. I use to be fully republican myself. Now, I'm leaning more towards democrat because it seems they actually care about humanity. Don't get me wrong. I'm a capitalist to the core. I love business. Business is quite literally in my genetics. My grandfather on my mother's side was a businessman who sold produce to large Colombian markets. My grandfather on my Dad's side owned an icecream factory among other businesses in the philippines. The point is, I'm moderate on both sides. Still, for these programs, I don't see them happening in red states and cities. All these places where they are helping the homeless are in blue states and cities. All of them that you guys mentioned.

Karl Baron Jul 8, 2023

@gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian If the large population is a problem, then you could try splitting the country up into smaller, easier to govern regions with local governments.

Maybe you could call them “states”

@kalleboo @lisamelton @BrentToderian Try having states ran by liberal people who care about things like humanity and social standards and put them in the North but also, try dealing with the exact opposite politically and put the members of the governing parties in a chamber and call it congress.

mooncube Jul 8, 2023

@gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian If giving one homeless person free shelter and care is cheaper than leaving them on the street, why wouldn‘t that scale to n homeless people? The savings would just be even more (if the money were the only argument here).

@mooncube @gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian

mav

Jul 8, 2023

It's simply that without an underclass, the US economic model doesn't work. You have to have someone to look down on if everyone's going to be their own radical island and no one will think or act collectively. So we still have an underclass, because those in charge want it.

See also universal healthcare.

mooncube Jul 8, 2023

@mav @gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian Oh yes definitely, but that means the reason why it‘s not implemented is, like you‘re saying, oppression and purpose. Not culture or population size, which is what the person I was replying to wrote.

mav

Jul 8, 2023

@mooncube @gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian Oh yeah, I was just agreeing.

cyplo Jul 8, 2023

@gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian lol

Sze Hui Jul 8, 2023

@gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian a hospital in NYC piloted this same program with a population of its homeless ER frequent flyers, and basically had the same results - and was able to pay for the program entirely out of money saved from ER visits avoided

@szeis4cookie @lisamelton @BrentToderian NYC is a democrat's paradise. That's why it works so well. They have the political power to make it happen. Oh, and the rediculous taxes they make you pay there too.

Sze Hui Jul 8, 2023

@gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian the city govt wasn't involved in that pilot - all run by a for profit private hospital

Darwin Woodka Jul 8, 2023

@gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian
"It would never work!" says country that refuses to try it

merien Jul 8, 2023

@gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian no, it doesn’t work in the US because Americans don’t want this. They don’t even have universal healthcare. But there is no practice or scale reason it can’t be done. Bigger also means more spacr, more resources.

Riley S. Faelan Jul 9, 2023

@gocu54: I'm not sure you understand how numbers work.

@lisamelton @BrentToderian

sotolf Aug 9, 2023

@gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian can't tell if serious or if it's a bad joke.

Chris ♾️Sep 5, 2023

@gocu54 @lisamelton @BrentToderian Um, bullshit.
There's no reason having a smaller population is advantageous in housing the homeless, if anything it means they do it with fewer resources.

The culture difference does matter, it's that in the US we're acculturated to thinking that it's better to punish the homeless (and pay the costs associated with keeping them out on the street, never mind that it costs more to keep people on the street than it does to give them an apartment and some time with a social worker, and never mind that punishing them just means they become everyone's disruptive problem until they either end up in jail or dead) than it is to get those people back on their feet as quickly as possible.

Nick's world Sep 5, 2023

@BeautifulMind @BrentToderian @lisamelton I'm sort of lost here. What's this about?

Chris ♾️Sep 5, 2023

@gocu54 @BrentToderian @lisamelton Your prior post looked like the usual "it can't work in the US because <some pretext>" deflection that serves to change the subject away from things the US really could do if it wanted to- in particular, the subject is that in Finland they're solving homelessness by giving the homeless housing.

It turns out that some places in the US are already taking this approach- all it took was for Utah (for example) to figure out that it spends more taxpayer money per homeless person to have them be homeless than it does to give them an apartment and help them find work.

I'm so, so tired of seeing people argue online that the thing we should be doing (like single-payer health care or having better labor protections or stronger unions) "only works for them because they have a [small population \ racially homogeneous population]"

That's usually just a thought-terminating cliché, deployed for the purpose of shutting down the question and preventing real consideration of why we ought to do the right thing versus leaving the status quo as it is

xAlto Jul 8, 2023

@BrentToderian I was not aware of that, thanks, I'll gladly spread the word!

author_is_ShrikeTron🔠💉x7 Jul 8, 2023

@BrentToderian Same as it saves more money to give everybody healthcare than to have to aggregate their maladies and go to the ER, uninsured.

mooncube Jul 8, 2023

@BrentToderian Wow, that is so cool to see

ProIsh Jul 8, 2023

@BrentToderian any update over the last 3 years?

Rob Jul 8, 2023

@ProIsh @BrentToderian Still moving the right direction. https://www.ara.fi/en-US/Materials/Homelessness_reports/Homelessness_in_Finland_2022%2865349%29

Ara > Homelessness in Finland 2022

At the end of 2022, there were 3,686 homeless people living alone in Finland, which is 262 less than in 2021. The number of the long-term homeless was 1,133, wh

Geoff Berner Jul 8, 2023

@BrentToderian the cruelty has always been the point. It's never been about the money. It's always been about the cultural necessity of our richest bullies for human sacrifice. And if people are guaranteed a home, they're less likely to grovel at work. Which bosses hate. Homelessness was always cultural. The state imposes it on people. That's how it's always been. Geez.

Being Jeffredo Jul 8, 2023

Amen! Thank you for sharing 🙂

GeofCox Jul 8, 2023

Rutger Bregman's book 'Utopia for Realists' has many examples like this of simple, obvious solutions to social problems that would actually save governments money.

But that's the point. They save governments money. But to the asset rich (landlords, shareholders, etc) it is the threat of homelessness, unemployment, poverty, that keeps us working for them, paying rent to them, etc...

David W. Jones Jul 8, 2023

@MmeRoux @BrentToderian Now if only #Honolulu would try this...Oh, wait, their first priority is building expensive condos for rich people. City & County of Honolulu hate the homeless.

TrueGoode Jul 8, 2023

@BrentToderian
Costs less and improves productivity.
People with homes are much more likely to enter the workforce and contribute to GDP rather than being written off as a useless drain on society.
Well done Finland.

Mastomom Jul 8, 2023

@BrentToderian
Housing first is the way.

Mastomom Jul 8, 2023

@BrentToderian
Just in case anyone is interested, my late husband helped this organization, and they're doing great things. They started out just feeding people but have moved on to housing and job training, just a great organization.
https://mlf.org/community-first/

Hagbard Jul 8, 2023

In the neoliberal framework that shapes US economic policy, it doesn't really matter that accepting homelessness costs more. The neolib stance is that the government shouldn't do ANYTHING about homelessness other than policing.

Neolibs are horrified to think any of their wealth might be taken from them against their will thru taxation; and that their wealth might go to the "undeserving".

Jeff Zugale - Z Factory Jul 9, 2023

@hagbard @BrentToderian I’d say they’re not really liberal in any way eh?

Acesabe Jul 8, 2023

@BrentToderian
Homeless people aren't making money and paying taxes, the incentives to get these people out of the rutt is obvious and it's not rocket science to implement rehab programs.
Fixing broken people so that they don't go back to the street is a whole different story and is cultural and may take generations to fix unfortunately.

Greg Jul 8, 2023

@BrentToderian It's almost like kindness pays for itself.

Jasmine Jul 8, 2023

The cruelty is the point. It's never about the money. That's just their tool of choice to oppress, suppress, torture, abuse, and kill us. There's more profit in homelessness and suffering. Never forget war is good for business.

Séan Billings Jul 8, 2023

@BrentToderian There's no shortage of people who view poverty as a moral failing. Talk to them about homelessness and all they are concerned with is blame.

People become homeless because of drugs/alcohol, or they didn't work hard enough in school, didn't work hard in their job, etc. It's their own fault, so homeless people deserve their miserable lives, end of discussion.

They despise the poor and hate the homeless. They don't want to help them. They just want them kept out of sight.

Theriac Sep 4, 2023

@IrishCraftBeer @BrentToderian

It's entirely manufactured. At the time of the 2010 banking crisis there was a lot of anger aimed at the bankers by the general public in the UK. Then slowly the media emphasis shifts from bankers getting bonuses paid out from the bailout money they received from the government to the poor and the disabled being scroungers, leeching the tax payer's money.

The common factor in the UK and the US is Murdoch

Séan Billings Sep 4, 2023

@Theriac @BrentToderian That attitude is not new and is certainly not restricted to any one country. There are people indifferent to the suffering of others and openly hostile to anything that would improve the lives of poor people because they hate the notion of someone getting something they don't feel they deserve. Especially if it's taxpayer funded. Talk to any avowed conservative, in any country, about social welfare.