Jerry 🦙💝🦙

Y’all…

I had to go to FB to find out about fireworks tonight due to a passing rain storm. I haven’t been on FB in a long, long time.

There are people posting elementary school math problems and adults are arguing about the answers.

What is happening to this world? Did people forget how to do basic arithmetic?

Jul 4, 2023 at 3:07amWeb
Show threadJono FergusonJul 4, 2023
@jerry yes.
Show threadBob DavidsonJul 4, 2023

@jerry

none of it adds up!

Show threadAndres JalintonJul 4, 2023
@jerry
I know nothing about basic arithmetic.
Show threadBillJul 4, 2023
@jerry It's "new math"
Show threadbumponalogJul 4, 2023

@jerry There was a show 'Are you smarter than a Fifth Grader.'

This isn't new, most students are convinced they will never use anything they learn in school so they make no effort in remembering it.

Of course, there is also the possibility they were making these same mistakes when they were in school.

Show threadJerry 🦙💝🦙Jul 4, 2023
@bumponalog good points
Show threadRaineer  🦆Jul 4, 2023
@jerry my wife occasionally shows me the never-ending PEMDAS debates. It’s stunning.
Show threadEvan HuntJul 4, 2023
@jerry Nobody ever knew how to do basic arithmetic in the first place, that's kinda the point of the arguments.
Show threadMatthew Miller Jul 4, 2023
@jerry My understanding is that those kinds of engagement-bait math posts are intentionally ambiguous to foment disagreement. They're the kind of problems you'd never see in academia because the order of operations are under-defined.
Show threadJerry 🦙💝🦙Jul 4, 2023
@iamkale I suspect you are right. But that’s the thing: the answer is trivially obvious. And I’m not talking about the cute ones that have a factorial (!) at the end - just addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division
Show threadrusJul 4, 2023
@jerry @iamkale there are regional differences (eg PEMDAS v BODMAS) that keep the debating going through different timezones. As long as everyone you work with use the same ordering (and notation) it works out. When people are sure there is only one true way... Facebook. Seems like a good lesson for life in general.
Show threadKonrad RudolphJul 4, 2023

@rusozoll @jerry @iamkale PEMDAS = BODMAS. The only regional difference is the name; the order of operations is the same.

To be clear, there *are* regional differences in maths notation conventions. Just not in the precedence order of the four basic operations. It just seems that many people misremember, or were taught poorly.

Show threadrusJul 4, 2023

@klmr @jerry @iamkale the differences are minor, and the questions people argue about are intentionally written without explicit grouping.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/stephenlaconte/viral-math-equation-controversial-pemdas

It's an old article, but so is the engagement trick.

This Controversial Math Equation Has Everyone On The Internet Arguing

I need to lie down.

BuzzFeed
Show threadKonrad RudolphJul 4, 2023
@rusozoll @jerry @iamkale I'm aware. My only point is that there are *no* differences between BODMAS and PEMDAS. They're two different names for identical rules.
Show threadadmiraltealJul 4, 2023

@iamkale Absolutely that's what's going on. Typically, it's using the division sign to create confusion about which terms are being divided by which other terms.

In actual math, this is never an issue. The division sign basically goes away the day you teach long division. The multiplication sign sticks around way longer than it should but is also basically not used by serious mathematicians, engineers, or scientists. And it's precisely because they are ambiguous.

The really old one was 2x ÷ 3y - 1 with x=9 and y=2. When you read this, you have to decide which is the "true" format of the question.
Is it 2x ÷ (3y - 1) giving you 18/5?
Or (2x ÷ 3y) - 1 giving you 2?
If you follow PEDMAS very strictly, you could even say it is 2(x ÷ 3)y - 1 giving you 11, which I recall being the 'correct' answer since it was a PEDMAS worksheet assignment.

But, of course, most people interpret 2 as the correct answer because that's more typical of that kind of algebra. The reality is, it's just a badly-written problem. Don't use the division sign, use fractions. If you need it expressed linearly, use parathesis carefully or else take it to -1 exponents.

Social media thrives on engagement and people love to engage. Intentionally or not, it's ragebait content. The correct answer is to say the question is bad.

Show threadjnkrtechJul 4, 2023
@admiralteal @jerry @iamkale I think this nails it. The frustrating thing for me is that the inability to see that the questions are malformed is in itself a lack of mathematical understanding, because higher level math is based on the understanding that you have a bunch of symbols on a page and rules about which rows of symbols can appear after each other. This is the understanding that semantics, proofs, formal logic, etc etc are based on, and which IMO the most beautiful mathematics requires. The fact that people don’t get that indicates to me that their education failed to expose them to what math is really about, and that they’ll never experience math beyond arithmetic.
Show threadDean, StevenJul 4, 2023
@jerry I forgot again that you live in the same area as me. We were tracking/avoiding the same storm. Maybe even guessing whether the same city’s fireworks were even going to start (finally did at 10:02).
Show threadJim HubbellJul 4, 2023
@jerry
I try to curate my timeline to avoid those problems. And I never follow neighbors or coworkers.
Show threadEmmie (me)Jul 4, 2023
@jerry this... reminded me when I used to be on FB and stuff, and something like 1+ 3 * 2 = ? went viral...

I guess the average person just isn't that intelligent... and I don't believe FB is attracting a lot of intellectuals to be active users as of late
Show threadJerry 🦙💝🦙Jul 4, 2023
@zlatiah that is exactly the kinds of math problems I saw. With like 400,000 responses
Show threadMastodon MigrationJul 4, 2023
@jerry Yes, ever since digital calculators. Now with AI people will forget how to think at all.
Show threadWombatadonJul 4, 2023
@jerry I haven't been in Facebook ever, and that stuff is partly why.
As well, why would I post my personal life up there for Meta to monetise. Google does enough of that already.
Show threadBen RamseyJul 4, 2023
@jerry Terrence Howard quit acting to pursue his goal of convincing the world that 1 × 1 = 2. I wish I was making this up.
Show threadFlorian  Jul 4, 2023
@ramsey @jerry 1 := √2 😅
Show threadThunderstrikeJul 4, 2023
@jerry No, they just decided that facts are subjective and that square pegs *can* be made to fit into round holes if sufficient force is applied.
Show threadJulian LamJul 4, 2023
@jerry PEBKAC — err, I mean — BEDMAS problems are used for skill testing questions on purpose...
Show threadunlink2Jul 4, 2023
@jerry I feel like it's not that people are forgetting, we just have a place where are the people who never knew assemble 🙃
Show threadJosephMennJul 4, 2023
@jerry they changed math.
Show threadJerry 🦙💝🦙Jul 4, 2023
@JosephMenn not sure what you mean?
Show threadJosephMennJul 4, 2023
@jerry well it’s a reference to one of the Incredibles movies. But kids are now taught to do multiplication and division with different methods, and they have to show their work. So adults trying to help with the way they we’re taught would get marked down.
Show threadbantyJul 4, 2023
@JosephMenn @jerry “I don’t know that way! Math is math! Why would the change math?”
Show threadMarc JacobsJul 4, 2023

@JosephMenn @jerry My dad, born 1932, said the same thing when I was learning division.

At least we did multiplication the same.

Show threadBrianJul 4, 2023
@jerry yes.
Show threadpejacobyJul 4, 2023

@jerry sigh, makes you yearn for the blue/black gold/white dress days of the other place, don’t it?

I don’t use FB myself at all but have to copilot my spouse’s account so she can relearn how to post a picture every time she falls into some A/B test hole. She’s not technical and so logically figures it’s her fault every time. Another negative-feedback-loop interaction…

Show threadCompuguy 🐱Jul 4, 2023
@jerry Whatever you do, don't go onto Nextdoor. It's *far worse*! 😬
Show threadSpaceLifeFormJul 4, 2023

@jerry

42

Show threadGwynJul 4, 2023
@SpaceLifeForm @jerry Correct! You win a lolly!
Show threadAJ Jul 4, 2023
@jerry Reading through posts of people arguing about the basic order of operations was quite entertaining the first time, but the most shocking part of it all is how consistently bad people are at it.
Show threadFennix Jul 4, 2023

@jerry Years ago, a very smart friend of mine reposted some copypasta about how incredibly rare it was for a year to start on a Wednesday, something which hadn't happened for 400 years.

They weren't sharing it because they found it to be hilarious and they wanted to critique it. They were genuinely sharing it because they thought it was a weird quirk of the calendar and didn't bother flipping back a few years to see if it was even true.

This person was just sharing something for likes in 2010 or so. It's been about harvesting and driving interaction for a long long time, and those "could be ambiguous" math things are great for having gigantic arguments over. Just like the whole "The Dress" thing.

Show threadOliver Jul 4, 2023
@jerry 🤔
Show threadSimonoidJul 4, 2023
@jerry turns out my parents were right? I am special. But more to the point. Most people are not very smart... 😑
Show threadStephan NeuhausJul 4, 2023

@jerry The "math problems" I've seen are mostly about operator priority, like 2 + 2 x 2, is that 6 or 8? Yes, it's good to know about these things, but mathematically, it's just a convention and therefore boring. I mean it's not as if they were arguing about Russell's paradox or anything.

I think these "problems" are created as attention-getters because the people who pose them know that at least someone will get them wrong and before you know it, people will be called idiots.

Show threadAngus Marshall  Jul 4, 2023
@jerry Yes - and politicians, especially, make jokes about their own inability to add up.
Show threadChloe FletcherJul 4, 2023
@jerry No. They never knew, in the first place.
Show threadJustin DerrickJul 4, 2023
@jerry The best fireworks show I ever saw was in a thunderstorm... Fireworks are popping left and right, then *BOOM* *CRACK*... A huge stroke of lighting threading down from the clouds and down to the lake behind the barge... Mother nature lets everyone know who holds the real power.
Show thread[nate@social0 ~]$ Jul 4, 2023
@jerry those things…. they share improperly formatted math problems. then people have trouble with the order of operations. what a gimmick.
Show threadCenobyte Jul 4, 2023
@jerry I keep seeing stuff like this floating around, except it uses the non standard division sign (dot line dot) instead of / without brackets..etc. Very unclear. Then a bunch of people argue over it. Chaos ensues. Clarity of notation is important.
Show threadMatt SickerJul 4, 2023
@jerry arguing about order of operations is a classic net discussion dating back to BBSes
Show threadFluxJul 11, 2023
@jerry worse is the fact that no one actually bothers to just refresh their memory and have a look at the freaking order of operations.... instead of spamming the comment section with blatantly incorrect answers