mekka okereke Jun 20, 2023

🤯 This year in social media is wild. The latest chapter is no exception. Fascinating data and anecdotes.

Data:
* Over 430K Fediverse accounts created in the past week. And it's accelerating.

https://mastodon.social/@mastodonusercount/110576430285028932

Anecdotes:
Major communities may be moving soon.

https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration/t/59559/Removed-as-moderator-of-r-Celebrities-after-14-years

Here's the Fediverse version of "celebrities" with exactly 1 subscriber so far... the person who claimed to be the former moderator of the celebrities sub-reddit.
https://kbin.social/m/celebrities

Removed as moderator of /r/Celebrities after 14 years - RedditMigration to the "Threadiverse" - kbin.social

They did not provide a reason. There was no further dialog. I just got a system message telling me I was removed....

Show threadmekka okereke Jun 20, 2023

I'm still sticking with my call that *long-term*, decentralized social media will be the winner. Too many of the world's greatest Android and iOS mobile development teams are now building for the fediverse. Too many of the world's best *human* moderation, privacy, and safety, experts are on the fediverse. The user benefits are too aligned, despite companies not having the usual metrics and analytics to optimize the experience.

Fighting the fediverse is like fighting a flood by punching it.

Show threadmekka okereke Jun 20, 2023

Yes, Mastodon still has huge problems with "HOA racism" and user safety. But there is a "path to green" for all of these problems. And people (including me! 🙋🏿‍♂️) are working on them.

Yes, the current version of ActivityPub is not ready for what's coming. But again, too many of the world's best SREs and API designers are now poking ActivityPub with a stick again, now that the scale constraints have changed.

Show threadmekka okereke Jun 20, 2023

If Fediverse wins, dozens (hundreds?) of mobile apps and services have a continued path to be sustainable businesses. Yes, some of the big ones are VC funded. But many of the others are not. Unapologetically: I like helping to create paths for user benefit centered, trust based, innovative, companies to thrive.

The Fediverse is messy. Just like democracy is messy. But they're both ideas that are too powerful to ignore. They tap into too much human power of both intellect and inspiration.

Show threadJustinmwhitakerJun 20, 2023
@mekkaokereke In order for the Fediverse to win, there has to be a more pragmatic approach to Corporates jumping in.
Show threadmekka okereke Jun 20, 2023

@justinmwhitaker

I don't think that's true.

I think it can continue to be messy and chaotic, and Fediverse still wins.🤷🏿‍♂️

I think that big corporations need Fediverse more than Fediverse needs big corporations. On current trajectory, the net flow of users is away from centralized platforms and towards the fedi.

I think that Meta entering fedi now, is an indicator that they see where this is all headed, and understand that they need to get there early. Like with Instagram. And WhatsApp.

Show threadJustinmwhitakerJun 20, 2023

@mekkaokereke It's going to stay chaotic and messy...but servers, bandwidth, and development cost money.

That net flow away from free ad/VC/data sale supported networks to charity driven servers maintained by volunteers or coalitions of the willing isn't supportable long term.

At some point, Mastodon, or whatever the site du jour is, is going to need a cash inflow to survive.

Show threadmekka okereke Jun 20, 2023

@justinmwhitaker

Ah, I see your point! Thanks for clarifying.

I think that happens naturally as well. The percent of people on Fedi that deeply understand the difference between capitalism and commerce, is increasing. The idea of labor (paying human beings for their time and expertise) is less taboo now. The idea that sharing the cost for a server without a profit motive is growing. When you eat at a restaurant with friends and split the bill, it's not "charity." It's also not profit driven.

Show threadmekka okereke 

@justinmwhitaker

"Use this server for free! Donate if you feel like it. Or don't! Up to you, mate!" works until it doesn't. Then we hear, "I'm shutting down in a month! Too much work, and y'all just yell at me anyway... 😢"

"This server is a co-op. It costs $5 a year at this level. We have subsidized memberships. If you can't pay, ask us! If you're able to, you can cover a subsidized membership for others! Every additional $5 you pay, covers a membership for someone else." is sustainable.

Jun 20, 2023 at 2:35pmWeb
Show threaddstuJun 20, 2023
@mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker as a point of reference, @SDF has provided services on the Internet longer than the Web has been around and uses this membership model extensively.
Show threadWoozle HypertwinJun 20, 2023

@trurl @mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker @SDF

#TootCat is run on a "pay what you can, if you can" model as well. I've been running it that way since the start of 2018, and I don't foresee burnout becoming a problem; it's a matter of being able to nurture a supportive community and (most importantly) being willing to delegate tasks rather than... well, the alternatives.

I've lost count of how many "I quit" admins I've tried to contact to ask if they'd like someone to take over managing their site (temporarily or permanently), and the answer is always* no (when they bother replying at all). ...so I have to say I'm a tad suspicious of the idea that burnout was ever the real problem.

* with the sole exception of TC's owner, back at the end of 2017.

Show threadBrian CampbellJun 20, 2023

@woozle @trurl @mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker @SDF well, nova had a pretty public quit of administering this instance, but had already set up a team of mods and admins and a nonprofit to accept donations, so I'd say that's another fairly positive example.

It would be nice if more admins would feel comfortable handing an instance off rather than shutting down, but sometimes finding someone to hand off to and doing all of the work to migrate everything over can be a lot of work at peak burnout.

Show threadmekka okereke Jun 20, 2023

@unlambda @woozle @trurl @justinmwhitaker @SDF

Yeah. She handled that whole situation so much better than I would have. I don't have that kind of strength.🤷🏿‍♂️

But yeah, she built a real organization with admin being a separate function from moderation, and a separate function from governance. She had the humility to say from jump "I shouldn't be the unilateral top of moderation, or governance, or admin. No new monarchs."

It takes a lot of foresight to set things up that way. Uncommon. Respect.

Show threadgledJun 21, 2023
@woozle @trurl @mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker @SDF I did end mastodon.host ( along with funkwhale / peertube etc... ) due to a lack of funds to continue in 2018-19ish after 2+y of hosting that. Sadly the takeover went wrong and the new admin disappeared only 6m after he took over. I wish I had given that to someone who would have continued... Or found a way to secure enough funding to cover the hosting costs... Different times, the fediverse was only an infant ;)
Show threadWoozle HypertwinJun 21, 2023

@gled

That really sucks; thank you for talking about it here. I think more of these stories need to be told. What was the budget like (requirements & shortfall), at that point, if I may ask?

@trurl @mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker @SDF

Show threadgledJun 21, 2023
@woozle @trurl @mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker @SDF

mastodon.host started at around $30 per month on a single VPS, but quickly evolved into 4 then 5 servers, with a monthly cost above $400. I think peak was around the $450-500/month. I got some donations from time to time, max was maybe around $30 iirc, far from getting into sustainable territories, even though super appreciated.

At the time, my servers were receiving more than 70% of the fediverse public posts, I was hosting one of the biggest funkwhale instance, plus a relatively sizeable Peertube one, the Plume flagship ( fediverse.blog, luckily this got separated and given back to Plume community before the break ) and a few other services ( xmpp chat over your mastodon creds, pleroma before it was considered bad, a mastodon public relay, etc.. ).

Most of the cost was the DB server, and then you add the workers, public front, and file server, this adds up fast...

Could I have reduced monthly expenses at the cost of slower service ? Yes for sure... Or I could have shutdown a few services too. Also the time spent maintaining the whole stack of different softs was getting a bit out there too, especially as I was maintaining a soft fork of mastodon to provide search before ES was introduced, and maintained a patch without ES after ES was introduced.

When I decided it was too much to continue sustaining this kind of running expense, I had contact with someone I thought would be continuing for a long time, and would pledge the same I did "If/when I have to stop, I will give the server to another admin the users approve of to continue instead of shutting down". Unfortunately, the service went dark one day and the admin just vanished.

All services/backup/domain etc... were out of reach for me to get control back and save, so it was all lost and users had to move elsewhere with no backups :/

Lesson learned, if I had to setup something again, I would not do it alone but rather with a group of admins, and a clear path to auto-financing the hosting part for long term sustainability.

I was lucky to have a mod team that was doing a great job, having to moderate only as a replacement for them when they needed to take a break or to validate their decision with the admin hat. That taught me also that mod burnout is a real thing, hence the supplementing when the mod team needed help.

Happy to answer any questions you may have :)
Show threadFeralRobotsJun 20, 2023
@mekkaokereke
We should all work more to popularize this framing.
@justinmwhitaker
Show threadSam WronskiJun 20, 2023
@mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker The internet as a co-op is a really attractive idea.
Show threaddraNgNonJun 20, 2023
@runewake2 @mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker it fully is, 💯
Show threadHalJun 21, 2023

@mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker

I want this system to be the norm and would like to see instance hosting solutions include ways to make it a one click operation

Show threadShoq 🌿Jun 21, 2023

@zzz @mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker

I just tested such a one-click solution for the soon to launch #Spacehost. I had a copy of Lemmy running with basically one click, plus the credit card info. It’s aiming to be AI-assisted 1-click host management, too.

Show threadJohn [He, Him, His] 🌈👨🏼‍🔬🧬🧫🧪💻Jun 21, 2023
@mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker yes this. I love this and as someone who could definitely afford $5, I’d for sure help subsidize those who can’t. I’d pay more to get out from under the pop up ads and “like and subscribe now” harassment on basically all major internet platforms and sites.
Show threadBai ShenJun 21, 2023

@no1lion99 @mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker Sounds like the Patreon model for mastodon instances.

Speaking of which, I wonder if there's a way to improve that whole area as well.

Show threadGorgeous na Shock!Jun 21, 2023
@mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker I will only pay if it gives me a special badge that tells everyone I have bad opinions and boosts them above everyone else's.
Show threadslowdownitsfineJun 21, 2023

@mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker this reminds me very much about the points @hostsharing makes in their post here https://www.hostsharing.net/blog/2019/11/12/free-software-und-coop-infrastructure/ (unfortunately in german).

Co-ops seem to be an interesting model which can carry the human and physical operating costs of our federated infra which do show positive scaling effects (more co-op members, less costs for all co-op members).
While avoiding the downside of a winner-takes-all mentality, that is preeminent today.

I just recently discovered that post and it really got me thinking and excited!

Free Software is evil

Open-Source-Software ist böse. Sie ist die Waffe, mit der GAFA das Internet monopolisiert hat. Jeder Open-Source-Entwickler spielt GAFA in die Hände. Der Einzelne ist machtlos gegen die Übermacht der Internetkonzerne. Gemeinschaftlich betriebene Infrastruktur könnte ein Weg sein, das Internet wieder zu dezentralisieren und ein wenig digitale Souveränität zurückzugewinnen.

Show threadGaëtan PerraultJun 21, 2023

@slowdownitsfine @mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker @hostsharing

And in fact, this is kind what's happening. Cosocial.ca is already a co-op. My current server is filing to be a society. The governance models are happening and I expect co-ops will be the way this succeeds.

Show threadHostsharing eGJun 22, 2023
@gatesvp @slowdownitsfine @mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker Great news. Hostsharing was founded in 2000 in the good old days of the internet. ;-) Our mission is to build cooperative property of technical infrastructure. Our members use our own servers for all kinds of use cases. Cooperatives are long term service partners for their members as scaling serves the members. We have members – in many cases organizations – that run services like Mastodon or Matrix for their peers in our coop cloud.
Show threadJimmyJun 23, 2023
@hostsharing This is an amazing project you're running! I noticed your site is in German, which I haven't acquired yet. Until I do, could I still become a member?
Show threadjamilJun 21, 2023

@slowdownitsfine @mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker @hostsharing

i read through Google translate, interesting article, there are other platform cooperative movements about, e.g. https://platform.coop/ and maybe some support available to start be co-op's

Platform Cooperativism Consortium | A hub that helps you start, grow, or convert to platform co-ops.

A hub that helps you start, grow, or convert to platform co-ops.

Platform Cooperativism Consortium
Show threadStop ThatJun 21, 2023
@mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker Wikipedia shows that the “Donate if you want” model can work, but effort has to be put in to it. It helps that when they run their donation drives, they say very clearly how much they need to make and how much they’ve made so far, and they can put a banner for it right at the top when you go on the site. Fediverse sites building that kind of functionality in for server admins would help keep them alive.
Show threadNicolás AlvarezJun 25, 2023

@mekkaokereke @stopthatgirl7 @justinmwhitaker Wikipedia isn't an example to copy, they aggressively beg for donations as if they were at the verge of bankruptcy, but they have more money than they know what to do with.

https://www.dailydot.com/debug/wikipedia-endownemnt-fundraising/

Wikipedia is swimming in money—why is it begging people to donate?

The site is way richer than it wants you to know.

The Daily Dot
Show threadStop ThatJun 25, 2023
@nicolas17 @mekkaokereke @justinmwhitaker So…the donation model works, is what you’re saying.
Show threadmekka okereke Jun 25, 2023

@stopthatgirl7 @nicolas17 @justinmwhitaker

Yes, the donation model can work. It's working now.

My point is not that donations can never work.

My point is that other models can work too.

There are more choices than "Ad supported" or "Donation supported."