censored for “transphobia”@rolandwasheeeere That cheeky WSJ headline was non-serious clickbait. The article did not actually suggest ppl skip breakfast. It mentioned #egg prices jumped 8.5%. I’m not bothered when non-vegan food prices jump. That’s a good thing if it helps steer people away from animal exploitation.
Ursidinoj/The Bjornsdottirs@koherecoWatchdog @rolandwasheeeere so you're cheering on folks starving because it drives people veg. people being driven veg by higher prices and then being driven off their veg food by that going higher too was the irish great famine. ideologically-driven psychopathy
Wendy Lady@ellenor2000 @koherecoWatchdog @rolandwasheeeere I read that too and raised an eyebrow. Sometimes vegans are proto-vegan...aka, want to push their own ideologies on others without their consent. Almost as bad as religious fundamentalism. Ignoring the human exploitive cost to harvesting their veggies, of course. Then they come around and drop the act and just be vegan for their own selves and leave the rest of us alone. I dated a vegan who knew better. And I actually like vegan food! Just not that other manipulative bullshit.
Anyway, this article's notion just made me want to raise my own chickens...too bad I can't afford a house with a yard to do it. Just like the vegans want, I guess. 🫠
@ellenor2000 @koherecoWatchdog @rolandwasheeeere somewhat. There are ways to be fully nutritional as a vegan, but there are also ways to be incredibly unhealthy as a vegan. My ex knew that he could be an unhealthy vegan at times. Because the multi-step process to make vegan food palatable and satiating often took a large portion of the day. Of course I loved to cook and find recipes that worked, but absolutely correct on the steps it took to get there. We'd spend hours cooking sometimes.
Corvid Crone@NerdRage42 @ellenor2000 @koherecoWatchdog @rolandwasheeeere this aspect of eating a vegan diet is not nearly talked about enough. It takes so much time and cooking to eat a vegan diet and also ensure that all nutritional needs are met.
A lot of people don't have the time or energy for that.
@CorvidCrone @ellenor2000 @koherecoWatchdog @rolandwasheeeere especially when our labor is exploited by our employers and we are spending more and more time in traffic as we are driven further and further away from our places of employment because we can't afford housing costs. And then those housing costs increase and we have to work longer hours in order to stay on top.
Chris A Dude@NerdRage42 @CorvidCrone @ellenor2000 @koherecoWatchdog @[email protected] hi. Historically meat was exclusively for the rich and sometimes for the middle class.The reason prices of meat and animal products become so cheap(er) is exploitation. In America companies where fined for using child labour as young as 12. It was meat packing plants. Last year people where outrage at employees at another packing plant not given bathroom breaks.
@chaosrsa @NerdRage42 @ellenor2000 @koherecoWatchdog @rolandwasheeeere
Peasants ate meat, just not as much as Americans do today.
https://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2019/may/medieval-peasant-diet.html
Shantell Powell@chaosrsa @koherecoWatchdog @ellenor2000 @NerdRage42 @CorvidCrone @rolandwasheeeere I’m Inuk. My ancestors ate almost nothing but meat.
@chaosrsa That depends on whose history you’re talking about. My Inuit ancestors ate very little vegetation. I agree with you about exploitation, though. Factory farming is one of the worst things capitalism came up with. It’s awful for the animals and for the people and for the land.
@Shanmonster fare enough, I was talking about Europe, should have clarified.
@CorvidCrone @rolandwasheeeere @ellenor2000 @NerdRage42 That’s true, but if you consider the case at hand (eggs are 8.5% costlier), for the same money you have ~9 eggs instead of 10. Having one less egg per the span of time you consume 10 is not going to take someone down the malnuitrition path. I’m not vegan but I’ve probably cut my non-vegan intake by ~80%, so I’m not at all at risk for malnutrition.
@NerdRage42 @ellenor2000 @rolandwasheeeere @CorvidCrone If/when I knock out the final 20%, then my food knowledge will become more important. I know someone who went vegan w/out knowing what he was doing & got hospitalized for malnutrition. But I must say whether someone “has time” is really a placeholder for “caring to allocate their time”.
@CorvidCrone @rolandwasheeeere @ellenor2000 @NerdRage42 Everyone gets a 24 hr day. But some are trapped spending 18 of it working. It would be interesting to work out whether those ppl can eat meat & identify as vegans. Why? B/c veganism is a /best effort/ lifestyle. If you don’t have time to work & gain food knowledge, then in principle you need to eat meat for survival & thus have minimized animal exploitation as much as you can.
@koherecoWatchdog @rolandwasheeeere @ellenor2000 @NerdRage42
I'm glad you see veganism as a "best effort thing" but most vegans I've met in real life do not consider consuming any animal products as being vegan.
Like, that's a you thing, not a universal thing.
@CorvidCrone @NerdRage42 @ellenor2000 @rolandwasheeeere The vegan society establishes a universal definition¹ which has no choice but to state exploitation is minimized “as far as is possible & practicable”. They necessarily acknowledge lack of absolutes. Farm gear on veg. farms kill copious rodents. Our control is limited. ① http://web.archive.org/web/20230327142141/www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism
@rolandwasheeeere @ellenor2000 @NerdRage42 @CorvidCrone When I say “best effort”, it’s aligned w/that universal definition. But it’s not as relaxed as it seems. The hypothetical scenario I gave which you replied technically recognizes the possibility of a meat-eating vegan, but someone must truly be on a wake up, work their ass off every nickel of which they need for survival, eat, and sleep, with no time to learn nutrition.
@CorvidCrone @NerdRage42 @ellenor2000 @rolandwasheeeere I’m not sure for how many ppl that’s a reality. And certainly they can still avoid meat at least ~4 or so days/week w/out knowing the 1st thing about nutrition. They just couldn’t sustain a solid meat-free consumption schedule w/out nutrition knowledge. If they eat meat daily then that obviously would not be a /best effort/ scenario.
@rolandwasheeeere @ellenor2000 @NerdRage42 @CorvidCrone I do have an unrelated objection to the universal definition. That is, if you eat meat from a dumpster you do not contribute to animal exploitation in the slightest. Yet you would not be vegan by the vegan society definition. I have a problem w/that. It misses the point.
@koherecoWatchdog @rolandwasheeeere @ellenor2000 @NerdRage42
I think you are mistaken about there being a universal philosophy behind veganism. People are vegan for a lot of different reasons, and only one is animal welfare.
I think you're also making a lot of assumptions about the amount of free time most adults have for reasons outside of their control.
Your heart seems to be in the right place, but your arguments are coming off as assumptive and classist.
@CorvidCrone @NerdRage42 @ellenor2000 @rolandwasheeeere Vegans come in a few main categories. You seem to be mistaking the /popular view/ with the /universal meaning/. It’s the popular view that’s wrong, not the Vegan Society’s. There are /dietary vegans/ (aka “strict vegetarians”), environmental vegans, ethical vegans (which encompasses animal welfare vegans). The popular view is vegan = dietary vegan.
@rolandwasheeeere @ellenor2000 @NerdRage42 @CorvidCrone The correct meaning of the generic term (“vegan” w/no qualifiers) is the *lifestyle* of veganism, which minimizes all forms of consumption (regardless of whether it’s environment driven or animal welfare).
@CorvidCrone @NerdRage42 @ellenor2000 @rolandwasheeeere It’s not that there’s no universal philosophy. It’s that the philosophy & definition have evolved. And most people didn’t get the memo. Originally, “vegan” was purely a diet. It became more than that.
@rolandwasheeeere @ellenor2000 @NerdRage42 @CorvidCrone Wikipedia is quite comprehensive on the history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism
If someone advocates for high prices on products that do social and/or environmental harm¹ as a means for harm reduction, are they “classist”?
① e.g.:
* cars (registration, parking, procurement, etc)
* fuel for cars
* air travel
* animal products
* vented tumble dryers
* hardware w/ #designedObsolescence
“qyes” → qualified yes
/cc @CorvidCrone
no
qyes if they don’t oppose consumption by the rich
yes
Poll ended at .
@koherecoWatchdog @NerdRage42 @ellenor2000 @rolandwasheeeere
"But I must say whether someone “has time” is really a placeholder for “caring to allocate their time”."
Yikes, dude. Yikes.
@CorvidCrone @rolandwasheeeere @ellenor2000 @NerdRage42 Of course. Everyone has time. “Time” is a scapegoat for ppl who give a lower priority to something. Prioritization is really the issue. Yikes, if you don’t realize this.
@NerdRage42 @ellenor2000 @rolandwasheeeere @CorvidCrone “I don’t have time to be ethical” really means “ethics is not high enough priority to consume my time”.
undead enby of the apocalypse@ellenor2000 @rolandwasheeeere @koherecoWatchdog @NerdRage42 at the risk of sounding a bit provocative, would you say the same about murder? “It’s fine if you choose not to murder random people but stop pushing your anti-murder views on us murderers, it’s our personal choice!”
What I’m saying is, there’s a reason why we oppose animal exploitation, and that’s because we believe nonhuman animals too deserve to not suffer and to be born, raised, mistreated, and killed at a young age just for the pleasure of humans. Seeing people do things that result in the exploitation of animals is very upsetting for this reason, and the reason why many of us outwardly adapt a “you do you” stance is because we’re exhausted and don’t want conflict, because even if we just do our thing in silence people just keep getting upset about it, because they don’t want to face their own feelings of guilt. I’m sorry but I think both rising food prices and animal exploitation are horrific and cause a shit ton of suffering, so just this once I’m gonna take the bait again and say that I oppose both of you. Consuming animal products if you have the option not to is definitely not a personal choice because it also affects the animals your products come from.
@enby_of_the_apocalypse @ellenor2000 @rolandwasheeeere @koherecoWatchdog straaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwmannnñnnnnnnnn
@enby_of_the_apocalypse @ellenor2000 @NerdRage42 @rolandwasheeeere Indeed I had the same thought. And no, it was certainly not a strawman. You did not present a different argument as NerdRage42 & then attack it. You made an analogy. The only possible logical fallacy would be /false analogy/, but those are quite dicey b/c an emotional hot head rarely accepts or absorbs analogies by the opposition. The analogy was good enough.
@rolandwasheeeere @NerdRage42 @ellenor2000 @enby_of_the_apocalypse The analogy exposes the fact that NerdRage42 has a problem #activism. He expects ppl to keep their sense of ethics to themselves, keep their head down, & not advocate moral responsibility. I’m not vegan but ideologically I am aligned w/vegans. I take issue w/vegans who actually do keep their head down. It’s insufficient to just take personal responsibility w/out advocacy.
@enby_of_the_apocalypse @ellenor2000 @NerdRage42 @rolandwasheeeere Great quote that I have much respect for: “Activism is my rent for living on this planet” —Alice Walker It’s a great quote because it not only endorses activism, it says we have a *duty* to practice activism.
@koherecoWatchdog @rolandwasheeeere @ellenor2000 @enby_of_the_apocalypse I don't have a problem with activism. I have a problem with people narcissistically pushing an ideology on others as if their way is the only answer. Wanna be vegan, be vegan. But telling others to be vegan or starve because eggs are more expensive is wrong. And then morally judging when the person doesn't agree is preposterous.
@NerdRage42 @enby_of_the_apocalypse @ellenor2000 @rolandwasheeeere You’ve missed one of enby_of_the_apocalypse’s critical posts. Veganism is not an absolute diet. Veganism is about doing all you /can/. If you were locked in a room & only eggs & concrete were around you, you can absolutely eat the eggs /and you are still vegan/. Why? Because you would be doing /all you can/.. you would be /minimizing/ exploitation of animals.
@rolandwasheeeere @ellenor2000 @enby_of_the_apocalypse @NerdRage42 Veganism never imposes starvation. Anyone who says otherwise does not understand veganism.
@koherecoWatchdog @enby_of_the_apocalypse @ellenor2000 @rolandwasheeeere that's not an equal analogy. It's presented as an extreme as a way to provoke something to attack at. That's not equivalent argument. You don't tell a lion to not eat meat because it's like murdering its own kind. As well, we aren't eating our own kind either.
@NerdRage42 @rolandwasheeeere @ellenor2000 @enby_of_the_apocalypse It is more extreme, which is often what helps clarify the point. Being more extreme does not make it a false analogy.
@koherecoWatchdog @rolandwasheeeere @ellenor2000 @enby_of_the_apocalypse btw, the steak I fed my family tonight was delicious. We used smoky Montreal seasoning. I cooked it with butter, onions, and a portabella mushroom.
I might have an impossible burger tomorrow to even out my conscience.
@NerdRage42 @enby_of_the_apocalypse @ellenor2000 @rolandwasheeeere Question is, where did you get that steak? If you pulled the steak out of dumpster or you stole it, then you contributed in no way to exploitation of animals, and that’s still vegan. If you slaughtered the animal, or paid someone to do so, that’s another thing.
@rolandwasheeeere @ellenor2000 @enby_of_the_apocalypse @NerdRage42 BTW, I am not vegan and I love eating steak. But I’ve cut way back on it. I’m at a point where I will only buy steak if it is on the day of expiry & marked down 50%. It’s a baby step toward veganism. Of all animal products, beef is the most GHG emitting of all of them & it has double the emissions of the next worst option (goat iirc).
@NerdRage42 @koherecoWatchdog @rolandwasheeeere @ellenor2000 it always boils down to this, doesn’t it? Every time you people run out of bad faith arguments you go “look at this meat i ate, meat yummy, aren’t you upset now vegans”. I’m not surprised tbh.
@koherecoWatchdog @NerdRage42 @ellenor2000 @rolandwasheeeere and yes, some people can’t be plant based because of for example health reasons. But veganism is as far as possible and practical, and no one is saying those people need to stop eating animal products if it’s not possible for them to do. And yes, no ethical consumption under capitalism and stuff, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t some kinds of consumption that are especially unethical (and would be under any system), and we should reduce those as far as possible. And yes, plant farming too results in exploitation, but you know what your exploited animals eat? Plants. And far more for a far smaller amount of food than if you just ate plants.
@enby_of_the_apocalypse @koherecoWatchdog @ellenor2000 @rolandwasheeeere Yeah, I ain't reading all that.
Trust me, the moment I read your first sentence I knew what the rest was gunna be. I'm 44 years old and have heard every vegan non-argument for decades since the 90s. Not a single one sounds less hostile and the only thing I've ever seen work for eating less meat is "here's an option that's accessible and affordable to eat it if you want to."
Trust me. You're exhausting.
Fuckin' proto-vegans. I swear. When you develop your thought process a bit more you'll see what an ass you sound like now and laugh. Good luck on your journey.
@NerdRage42 @enby_of_the_apocalypse @koherecoWatchdog @rolandwasheeeere I can't feel the gears in my head because they're munged up now,
@ellenor2000 @enby_of_the_apocalypse @koherecoWatchdog @rolandwasheeeere we morally inferior robots shall surely never survive the coming apocalypse. What will we do!?
@enby_of_the_apocalypse @ellenor2000 @[email protected] @koherecoWatchdog @NerdRage42 I think is a false analogy. Analogies would stay in the same realm. Cruelty is the realm. "I like kicking cats and dogs because it gives me pleasure ext" that might work as a analogy.
@koherecoWatchdog @NerdRage42 @chaosrsa @rolandwasheeeere @[email protected] the point of the analogy is about how it’s absurd to expect people to just stay quiet when others do horrible things and how absurd it is to paint people as bad people for wanting others to not do bad things.
@enby_of_the_apocalypse @koherecoWatchdog @NerdRage42 @[email protected] for some reason people relate to abuse of pets more then a hypothetical world where murder is ok in my experience.
@chaosrsa @NerdRage42 @rolandwasheeeere @koherecoWatchdog perhaps, but I don’t see the point of nitpicking about the ideal analogy
@enby_of_the_apocalypse @NerdRage42 @[email protected] @koherecoWatchdog it's like the nut picking fallacy. Pick the most extreme unreasonable person in group X then point out the absurdity and claim it for the whole group. It doesn't move the conversation forward and nor is it productive.
It's not the same here but if one makes the analogy more relatable then the point might come through. And I agree that a analogy doesn't need to be perfect but it needs to be impactful.