Philip Doherty 🖖
Dan GillmorDear developers: I don't want to use your app on my phone. I want a mobile web version, and you can do that.
Thanks kindly.
Dani 🍁@dangillmor 💯 I do too.
Officially Tara 🕷️ 
🌹@dangillmor but they want YOUR DATA 😅😅😅😅
seriously, installing an app isn't just a hassle, it's a security risk too.
Andy Waschick@dangillmor In fact it’s often EASIER and FASTER to build a web application. They don’t WANT that, because there’s less opportunity to dig their tendrils into your phone’s operating system through the browser.
Mobian@randywaterhouse @dangillmor in fact, isn't it that most apps are nothing but a mobile web site running inside a webview plus tracker? So it should not be a problem to just offer that as well.
Michael
OG_zuul@dangillmor it's why i haven't checked my email on fb in a long time. they have made it so that you have to download messenger to read messages on a mobile. no thanks. nothing anyone has to say to me on fb is worth that. not by any stretch of the imagination. if i can't use their mobile site then i just won't use their website on my phone. period. i'm with you.
@zuul Use desktop mode. Requires a lot of zoom/pinch/etc but it does work.
tyil@dangillmor @zuul Or just stop using #Facebook altogether. It's an anti-user walled garden, there's plenty of free and open platforms that do respect the user, like the #Fediverse!
@tyil @dangillmor i was off that facebook narcotic for years... however... in the past several years... pretty much every car related event... be it car shows or cruises or cars and coffee meet ups... pretty much everyone uses facebook now for such events. at some point ppl figured out it was cheaper and easier than maintaining their own web site for a once a year event. so in my case its a necessary evil. sadly.
Laura Kosloff@dangillmor Yes! I have often wondered why folks can’t make their website easier to access via phone.
Ertain@dangillmor Sometimes they'll give you a compromise by shipping an app which just pulls up the company's website or something. Still not what we're looking for, though.
Jeff Haluska@dangillmor 💯 agree. Unless it needs to do things with GPS, cameras, etc, it should be a webpage. There are some bandwidth reasons an app can have a better experience, but it is rarely the reason they have an app.
Axel Gutmann@jhaluska @dangillmor A web app can use location services and mic/cam just fine.
Felix@jhaluska @dangillmor web apps running in browsers can even do all of that by now, so really the only reasons are tracking and visibility in app stores.
@dangillmor Peeve: "app" that's just an ugly, kludgy, awkward wrapper for a website ☹️ and no additional functionality ☹️
Cykonot@dangillmor can't wait for a website that asks for permission to view your texts instead of ads
EndlessMason@dangillmor imagine being a dev on the mobile web site team and some product person makes you add an "our stuff is way better in the app, the mobile site is bad, actually" banner to the very mobile site you've been working on for 40 hours a week
Adolph
paladintom@dangillmor Hard disagree. The user experience is far better on dedicated apps.
Joe Ortiz@paladintom @dangillmor The reason why most people such as Dan (and myself included) want less reliance on apps is because most apps have trackers that basically affect your privacy and freedom. It's a well-known fact that most apps send so much data to data brokers and other Big Tech companies that you Tom don't understand.
FOSS apps are the exceptions rather than the rules since they usually don't track people
@joeo10 @dangillmor Joe, I do indeed understand how apps track users and sympathize with those who wish to not be tracked at all.
I personally prefer a better experience with apps that PWAs don’t quite offer yet. I DO care about privacy overall which is why I’ve gone with Apple, who I consider the least worst. I know Apple isn’t perfect, but I also try to use apps from indie devs that sync to iCloud on the backend and have reasonable privacy policies.
@paladintom @dangillmor There's only one way that would force companies to stop: enact strong privacy laws and sadly the US (as a example) don't have any of that right now.
Siderea, Sibylla BostoniensisHello, yes, I'd like to register my disapproval of how apps needlessly consume disk space on my phone?
It infuriates me that I have to clutter up my finite disk space with garbage apps if I want to interact with organizations I do business with every once in a while.
They cut into disk space for apps that I actually want.
Gen X-Wing@paladintom @dangillmor I find that “web is the only choice” and “app is the only choice” to be a self centered take on it. One of those “this works for me, everyone else is wrong” type of things.
Me, I haven’t used a single web app in my life that I’ve actually liked. I find every single of them having fundamental flaws for me they can’t overcome (because that’s how browsers work).
But everyone doesn’t value the same things.
Bill Vinson@dangillmor Assuming the app is not just a wrapped web view, I would almost always prefer an app. Web apps are capable, but in my experience usability (on a mobile device) is still better in a proper app. One day that may change, but so far, not for me…
@billvinson In my experience most apps are just that.
@virbonus Interesting. I don't find it as much in my daily drivers. However, I look for apps made by developers who focus on the platform. If it's just a big brand “crappy” app, I compare against the website & pick one. I definitely use way more of the "focused" developers apps day to day and when done well, I find they offer a much more polished mobile experience than a pure website (but the web keeps improving). However, your mileage will definitely vary based on app & personal preferences.
Sherri W (SyntaxSeed)@dangillmor Caveat: I want a mobile web version that *isn't* intentionally broken like Facebook's mobile website.
Julie moved to @@dangillmor But what if we wrap that webpage in a native app that uses its own built-in browser to deliver that webpage so you don't need to use a shortcut on your homescreen to get to the website?
Zarin Loosli@dangillmor I've basically decided that I'm going to build responsive PWAs for everything unless I have a very good reason not to. No mobile apps, no native desktop apps either
As others have pointed out, it makes development easier and faster, but it also solves the problem of "we don't support that operating system yet" or "this feature is only available in our mobile app"
It's ridiculous that the only way to browse my Steam library on my phone is to install an app
AravI'm curios to hear your reasoning behind this. I do find PWAs or sites optimized for mobile much better than using an app most times, but I'm curious to hear your take!
hamblingreen@dangillmor +1 on #mobilelinux, where without a desktop linux application basic functions like online banking are made much harder if the company doesn't have a fast and mobile-friendly website
Moffin'tosh@dangillmor No. A native app has often better performance and uses less battery
Tᴀᴋᴀɴᴀsʜɪ Hᴏʀᴏ@moffintosh @dangillmor ...which is not always needed. More often than not when I have to use a proprietary app, it is only for one specific circumstance, or at most like once per week, in which case I give exactly 0 fsck's about performance. Whatever app isolation mechanism you have natively on your device is never going to match what we have on the web even after all of these years of expanding capabilities. Especially nowadays even Android permits native apps to attest the "integrity" of the OS, which prevents the use of them on modified systems anyway. When I have to use a proprietary application on my phone, I would take a mobile web version any day over the native version filled with privacy-intrusive SDKs.
Irongut@dangillmor Dear user: Why cripple my app by running it through a web browser, that is probably also reporting your data to its manufacturer? Native code can access all the capabilities of the device you paid for, more efficiently and my apps report your data to no-one.
- An app developer
If your apps run more efficiently you are clearly a better class of developer than the folks who slapped together quite a lot of the apps I get stuck using.
JenSome from personal experience:
This is the first time I'm encountering your service and having to install an app is time, hassle, and uses data allowance.
All I want to do is read this article someone linked to. Websites are good at delivering content.
I don't want to make yet another account that I need yet another password for.
I want the same experience/functions across devices.
My phone storage / home screen is full.
Jacquelyn Gill@dangillmor Does this explain why I can't figure out how to log into Bluesky on my browser? 🙃
Kyle Cassidy@dangillmor but it's so much harder to spy on you with a moble web version!
morri@dangillmor so much this.
@dangillmor
I can agree with the sentiment, but note that it comes with its own downsides:
- The web-application is fully under the control of the website, not yours. So it's often harder to customize and even if you're really lucky and the code is Free, it's very hard to enjoy that Freedom.
- It usually puts pressure on the browser implementers to add functionality that exposes more of your private information, thus reducing the sandboxing advantage (seen from the user's PoV) of web-applications in the long run.
Christian Thäter@dangillmor Unfortunately it is not the developers who decide this. Say "Dear CEO" or "Dear Marketing".
AlanCorollary: half of the time, the app is little more than an interface to the bloody website anyway.
Tau@dangillmor I prefer native apps, they feel more responsive and many launchers don't have compatibility with PWA, moreover, most if not all foss browsers don't support the notifications
Matt TearleMe: hello, business entity that I appear to have no choice but to use for a specific one-off purpose. Would you like my money? I have my credit card at the ready.
Them: great! Just install this app you don’t need. Then create an account you will never use again. Then verify your account via the first of an infinite number of emails we sent you. Then login with the code we will text to your phone.
Me: you can’t just take my money?
Them: nope! Thanks for being forced to go through this!
Me: I wish you all a slow horrible death
Them: You’re welcome! Please rate our app and don’t forget to allow All The Notifications!
Ampelios@dangillmor but tHiS pAgE (that we built) lOoKs BeTtEr In ThE aPp (that we also built)
Craig Mcgee@mike @dangillmor app only things drive me crazy!! so many things have gone to app only, no web version no access on pc, use your phone or f off. now I know how those people who are told "go online" feel when they have no knowledge or desire to be forced to do everything online. I have no desire to do everything on my phone, which is slower to use, and not loud enough to use easily with my hearing loss.
Julian Lam@dangillmor no problem, my software doesn't come with an app 😉 #webfirst!
Allen Stenhaus@dangillmor But how are they supposed to track you? 🙄
Phil Thane ✅@dangillmor Oh yes please. My pet hate is car parks payment apps. Why? Why not accept a card, or Android/Apple Pay, or PayPal? Why do I need a different app for every car park?
Stewart X Addison@dangillmor It's platform independent and for security questionable services (Facebook/Twitter) I only access them that way.
Mastodon ... I've been happy to install an app for.
Mastodon ... I've been happy to install an app for.
@dangillmor also ... I have one credit card company who I have an account for who discontinued the web UI for account maintenance and switched to app only. I'll stop using them soon ...
n3wjack@dangillmor it's the managers and marketing people really, telling the devs to build the apps, add tracking and ads 😞
Lot⁴⁹@dangillmor Developers: Sure we could, but we also want to keep track of everything else you're doing so we can sell the info.
Tony Wells@dangillmor I make exceptions for apps that are great offline like mapping, but yes.
Rogue@dangillmor Might I also add: if you develop a mobile website, that functions perfectly but then 15 seconds into use locks me out till I download your app, that is AssholeDesign and you suck.
hanfi@dangillmor Dear Product: Our customers want your data, so we need a controlled environment.
Please behave for the sake of our stakeholders.
Best,
Your app-devs