ʕ•ᴥ•ʔMay 7, 2023
Noah
The Mormon Church is being fined 5 million because it hid a 32 billion dollar investment fund. This was not accidental. The SEC proved that both the investment firm and church went to great lengths to knowingly hide these assets. For the folks playing along at home, that’s a fine of 0.016% on the investment. Imagine lying on your taxes and you hid an extra $100K offshore and the IRS said “No sweat, pay us $15.63.” If there are no other repercussions, that’s not a fine, that’s encouragement.
Feb 22, 2023 at 1:37amWeb
Show threadfungible thadius 🍥Feb 22, 2023
@monkeyninja
Even worse because that $32 billion grew to $100 billion by the end of the accused hiding time.
Show thread0ddj0bbFeb 22, 2023
@monkeyninja cost of doing business right there.
Show threadAgoraFeb 22, 2023
@monkeyninja holy cow😳😳😳
Show threadAgoraFeb 22, 2023
@monkeyninja I hate these cheating cultists😡😡
Show threadLAURENFeb 22, 2023
@monkeyninja
Every financial institution on wall street operates this way with regard to regulatory fines. They knowingly break regulations because they will not be caught about 50% of the time. When they are, they happily agree to pay the fine as a "cost of doing business" fee. It is paid from the massive profits they have made in all of the other illegal and questionable transactions. They do the calculations. The Mormon Church knew what they'd be fined. They also have their own lobbyists.
Show threadSteve Moore Feb 22, 2023
@monkeyninja
Reposting comment from another thread -
Too bad T&T closed shop, they broke the story. This one on land holdings is eye popping - https://www.truthandtransparency.org/news/2022/04/05/lds-church-has-most-valuable-private-real-estate-portfolio-in-the-us-evidence-suggests/index.html
This interview with American Zion author will also boil your beans -
https://www.hcn.org/articles/south-public-lands-how-mormon-history-helps-explain-todays-public-land-fights
Search that site for other related articles.
While SCOTUS is whittling away at the Establishment Clause, Congress needs to take a hard look at the Tax Code
https://churchesandtaxes.procon.org
#religion #taxes #Mormon #church
LDS Church has Most Valuable Private Real Estate Portfolio in the US, Evidence Suggests

An investigation by Truth & Transparency reveals that, in July 2020, the LDS Church owned 1,754,633 acres across the country with a minimum market value of $15.7 billion.

Truth & Transparency
Show threadSue StrongFeb 24, 2023
@ArrowbearMoore @monkeyninja I looked at the map in the article, expanded it focusing on my area. The ones in black are churches where people go to worship on Sunday. They have lots. Some are Temples. The church buys lots of land to build them on. Unless you zoom in close, won’t notice that. Useful map.
Show threadFalcon DarkstarFeb 22, 2023
@monkeyninja Yikes. This fine is less than the annual management expenses of funds most people have access to.
Show threadPhDog 🇮🇪Feb 22, 2023

@monkeyninja

David Graeber got an economist to admit that he was not aware of single case where a company was fined more than the profit it turned breaking the law. He summarized this as the government saying: "Do all the crime you want, but if we catch you, you have to give us a cut."

Show thread𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇨🇦)Feb 25, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja that is because the government is the mafia and always has been.
Show threadmsgbiFeb 25, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja @charles_ex @aloa5
Show threadThomas H Jones IIFeb 25, 2023

@dogfox @monkeyninja

See: "cost of doing business"

G7 countries like to think of themselves as having non (minimally) corrupt oversight of their countries' respective economies. That, unlike "banana republics," you don't have to pay bribes to politicians just to do business. Instead, we have lobbying and civil fines for misconduct ...where the fines amount to little more than "you failed to lobby adequately ".

Yeah, real wrongdoing can become criminal, but not if you're "too big to fail".

Show threadThomas H Jones IIFeb 25, 2023

@dogfox @monkeyninja

...and criminal liability is on individual employees, not organizations.

Reminds one of the joke, "I'll believe corporations are people as soon as Texas puts one to death".

Show threadPhDog 🇮🇪Feb 25, 2023

@ferricoxide @monkeyninja

He had a whole shtick about how the US just legalized the bribery. What's lobbying? What are campaign contributions? What's paying an extra fee for expedited document processing?

Show threadRC HopgoodFeb 25, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja
i'm gonna miss seeing new work by Graeber. Such an amazing mind.
Show threadPhDog 🇮🇪Feb 25, 2023

@rchopgood @monkeyninja

I am constantly thinking "I really want to hear what David Graeber would thinking about such-and-so." Super sucks that he died. We weren't done with him.

Show threadbituur esztreymFeb 25, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja
yes.
see the 2nd rule:
2. a fine is a price
in this:
https://twitter.com/jonrog1/status/1537117402051141632
fantastic sharp short "set of rules" i found in my TL this night
John Rogers on Twitter

“@Invisigothdc Rule 1: Where there is value, there is crime. Rule 2: A fine is a price. Rule 3: Nothing ever stops until a Rich White Guy goes to jail. Rule 4: There are no Moriartys Rule 5: Everyone can be conned.”

Twitter
Show threadsxpertFeb 25, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja David Graeber is so dumb (like most rightwing pundits) he doesn't understand that "the government" is not an entity outside of society, but represents the society as a whole.
Show threadPhDog 🇮🇪Feb 25, 2023

@sxpert @monkeyninja

You might want to hit up Google, my guy.

Show threadsxpertFeb 25, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja he's a libertarian. nothing good come from them. they're the right-wing side of anarchists
Show threadPhDog 🇮🇪Feb 25, 2023

@sxpert @monkeyninja

LOL!

Show threadAmine ChadlyFeb 25, 2023
@sxpert @monkeyninja @dogfox here is the first paragraphe of David Graeber's wikipedia page: David Rolfe Graeber (/ˈɡreɪbər/; February 12, 1961 – September 2, 2020) was an American anthropologist and anarchist activist. His influential work in economic anthropology, particularly his books Debt: The First 5,000 Years (2011) and Bullshit Jobs (2018), and his leading role in the Occupy movement, earned him recognition as one of the foremost anthropologists and left-wing thinkers of his time.
Show threadCurious CarrotFeb 26, 2023
@chaami @sxpert @monkeyninja @dogfox
What can be defined as "left wing" in the US might not be categorised as such in somewhere else. Thus, I can see how one could see the same person under different lenses.
Show threadAmine ChadlyFeb 26, 2023
@curious_carrot @sxpert @monkeyninja @dogfox
I perfectly understand how one could see things through different lenses...
However the late David Graeber had to "exile himself" in Great Britain to teach because no US university would hire him due to his activism.
So I would think that whatever angle one wants to adopt, it takes quite a distortion to get him into that libertarian authoritarian trap 🤷
Show threaddog and the plateFeb 26, 2023
@sxpert il etait un communiste libertaire
Show threadbusta kittenFeb 26, 2023
@sxpert @monkeyninja @dogfox tankie alert hahaha wtf
Show threadsxpertFeb 26, 2023
@Iguanadelmar dumbass alert
Show threadbusta kittenFeb 26, 2023
@sxpert @monkeyninja @dogfox hey whats up go suck on stalins shriveled balls
Show threadBruce ElrickFeb 25, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja Where is the corporate death penalty?
Show threadPhDog 🇮🇪Feb 25, 2023

@virtuous_sloth @monkeyninja

*****manifesting*****

Show threadPeterD 🇩🇪 🇨🇦Feb 25, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja Yes and #UGH
Show threadDanny  Feb 25, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja is there a link for this? Would like to read.
Show threadPhDog 🇮🇪Feb 26, 2023

@danny @monkeyninja

Someone quoted him, with a reference on Twitter, which I am locked out of. Sorry, man.

Show threadDanny  Feb 26, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja I found it. It’s in the Book The Utopia of Rules. Discussion here: https://www.resilience.org/stories/2015-03-25/david-graeber-on-the-utopia-of-rules-why-deregulation-is-actually-expanding-bureaucracy/. Added to my to- read list! I didn’t even know about Graeber before. Thanks for clueing me I to him.
David Graeber on the Utopia of Rules: Why Deregulation is Actually Expanding Bureaucracy

The current economic system advances through free trade and deregulation; the American Dream has been outsourced globally.

Resilience
Show threadPeter BrownFeb 25, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja compare that to the large fines, and in some cases jail sentences, handed out for benefit fraud.
Show threadToxteth O'GradyFeb 25, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja Neat trick. Can this economist be convinced to state for the record that low unemployment is not the cause of high inflation?
Show threadKevin RussellFeb 25, 2023

@dogfox @monkeyninja nor

Nor A Single corporate criminal sent to jail.

If you want to commit a profitable crime, rent a suit, an office, pass a motion, and then put your crime on letterhead.

You'll never serve a day, never have to give the money back.

Show threadSane ThinkerFeb 26, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja An enormous problem. As long as it's cheaper to break laws and pay a fine than do the right thing, nothing will change. The whole system is bribed now.
Show threadAvram GrumerFeb 26, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja I agree with the basic point being made here but — Why would we expect an economist to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the history of corporate fines?
Show threadzeruchFeb 26, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja ...the second you fine them more than the 'cost of business' the business would straighten itself out in a heartbeat. So would sending C-Suites to "bubba is my roommate and he likes slow dancing" prison.
Show thread🅱🅻🆄🅴🅱️Feb 26, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja and so the message is heard loud and clear. It is not wrong to hurt people, only to fail to make a profit while doing so.
Show threadRob ShearerFeb 26, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja @kevin This confidently asserted about a $5 million fine for a disclosure violation that produced no profit. 🙄
Show threadKevin P. FlemingFeb 26, 2023
@rvcx @dogfox @monkeyninja This confidently asserted that the proper disclosure could not possibly have affected the values of the assets in the portfolio.
Show threadRob ShearerFeb 26, 2023
@kevin @dogfox @monkeyninja Nobody has alleged that: it is a conspiracy theory you have invented from whole cloth to reinforce some arbitrary political point. (In this case the allegation makes *particularly* little sense.)
Show threadRob ShearerFeb 26, 2023
@kevin And I have to point out, Kevin, that your indulgence of such deceptive, content-free (and often harmful) conspiracy theories when—and only when—they paint “the enemy” in a poor light has become a disappointing pattern for you.
Show threadKevin P. FlemingFeb 26, 2023
@rvcx Good to know you feel that way.
Show threadPatrickMeyfroidtFeb 27, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja thanks, do you have a reference or source or so on that?
Show threadPhDog 🇮🇪Feb 27, 2023

@pmeyfroidt @monkeyninja

I found it on Twitter, which I am locked out of. It wasn't his Twitter either. Someone had written the quote on a blackboard, with the citation, and posted a picture. So, you're in just as good a position to find it as me. Sorry.

Show threadDarwinApr 11, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja I imagine they have same strategy for legal costs related to potential lawsuits arising from personal injury caused by a company’s products/services. It always comes down to the bottom line.
📉📈📊🧐
Show threadEn Buen Ora 🆗Apr 11, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja As scriptwriter Jon Rogers always says, 'A fine is a price.'
Show threadBadriMay 12, 2023
@dogfox @monkeyninja I'm worried by how reasonable such a setup sounds when I think about it from the government's perspective
Show threadCJ the Awkward LeftyFeb 22, 2023
@monkeyninja yeah, it seems like the lesson is that you should absolutely hide your investments because the fine will be considerably less than the taxes would have been. What the hell.
Show threadAdam Christian SmithFeb 22, 2023

@monkeyninja One of these years I'm gonna cheat on my taxes and use this as a reference to defend myself.

I know I'll lose.

Show threadnshrubsFeb 22, 2023
@monkeyninja You should see how the church-owned news station has downplayed this whole situation in Utah. Lots of excuses, lots of trying to make it seem like no big deal, they made a mistake & accepted responsibility, etc. 🙄
Show threadJerameeFeb 22, 2023
@monkeyninja
I've heard about this. Given how the IRS has been neutered to hold churches and the wealthy accountable, I'm surprised anything was ever done.
Show threadstoicmikeFeb 22, 2023
@monkeyninja 20,000 pages of tax code is designed to make this kind of thing possible.
Show threadMonsieurPoopyHeadFeb 22, 2023
@monkeyninja
Damn those seagulls
Show threadSue BarnishFeb 22, 2023
@monkeyninja
Won't they also get hit for back taxes on top?
Show threadNoahFeb 25, 2023
@suebarnish_exTw1tter Sadly no, churches are tax-free entities in the US so this doesn't even count as evasion or fraud.
Show threadSue BarnishFeb 26, 2023
@monkeyninja
The system is always loaded against ordinary people...