Estevão CavalcantiApr 20, 2023
Aral Balkan
A timely reminder that “punishable by fine” means “legal for the rich.”
Apr 19, 2023 at 6:10amWeb
Show threadstop genocide punch nazisApr 19, 2023

@aral It doesn't properly do what it's supposed to, but there's a model of "day fines" used at least in Finland where fines are based on the daily income of the person.

"10 day fine" -fine would be 450 EUR for someone earning 3000 EUR per month, and 4950 EUR for someone earning 30k EUR.

(There's a bit of nonlinearity at the low end of the scale due to deductions for living expenses.)

Should be based on the wealth and income both, then it would be much better...

Show threadstop genocide punch nazisApr 19, 2023
@aral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-fine
Day-fine - Wikipedia

Show threadPhil LandmeierApr 19, 2023
@aral Exactly.
Show thread420Apr 19, 2023
@aral True! Eat the rich!
Show threadLomigApr 19, 2023
« Punishable by fine not indexed on your wealth » to be more precise, but yes. Yes indeed.
Show threadLot⁴⁹Apr 19, 2023
@aral Oligarchs world-wide: "Blowing up democracy is only 775 billion USD? I'll take two!"
Show threadMichal Bryxí 🌱Apr 19, 2023
@aral Never understood why fines are a fixed value and not % of one's monthly income / net worth 🫥
Show threadGabbo the wafrn dev guyApr 19, 2023
@[email protected]@[email protected] some crimes in spain (and europe I think) have a thing called "day fine". The crime takes in account your salary and takes "a number of days" of your salary as the fine thing. so no matter if you are poor or good on money, it hurts
Aral Balkan (@[email protected])

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Show threadthe hatterApr 19, 2023
@gabboman @aral @Maiko This is my canonical go-to example for that sort of idea - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1759791.stm. Old story about a Nokia exec fined $100k for doing 45 in a 30 zone.
BBC News | EUROPE | Nokia boss gets record speeding fine

A director of the Finnish telecommunications giant, Nokia, receives what is believed to be the most expensive speeding ticket ever.

Show threadRichard BarrellApr 20, 2023
@gabboman @aral @Maiko Sweden do that with fines for driving at unsafe speeds and set the world record speeding fine at ~$1M in 2010. I think possibly Finland do it too? I strongly feel that this should be practiced everywhere.
Show threadShar_sharApr 19, 2023
@aral
It is time that fines were scaled from a base fine to one based on income/wealth. The meaning of a fine is determent. It should penalize the rich to a point of pain as much as the poor. I think that would be democratic. Or perhape we could bring back the pillory. That too would be most democratic and make as much sense as the death penalty or the new abortion laws. Exorbitant fines for the rich and pillory. Let us equal the playing fields of justice.
#Fines
#justice
#democracy
Show threadChristopher ScottApr 19, 2023
@aral I think we already did the cutting of limbs thing a while back, that wasn't well received either. What are you proposing?
Show threadAral BalkanApr 19, 2023
@mckean Something tells me there are quite a few steps we could take between fines and cutting off limbs, don’t you? :)
Show threadChristopher ScottApr 19, 2023
@aral it seems we didn't take many steps with the initial statement, so why suddenly add more steps? I do like your statement, but it is flawed.
Show threadPatApr 19, 2023

@aral

Tax deductible cost of business

Show threadMemphisDaPlaya 🎲🎲Apr 19, 2023
@aral
Jail kinda frightens them, though.
Show threadAhoApr 19, 2023
@aral depends on where you live, for example in #Finland the traffic ticket is based on your income, so the rich may have to pay €60.000 while a poor may just pay €580.
Show threadA. RiveraApr 19, 2023
@aral Indeed, #AndJusticeForSome.
Show threadBeanoApr 19, 2023
@aral nothing has changed. This is from 1764.
Show threadLegionApr 19, 2023
@aral it's almost like they hoarded resources precisely for this purpose
Show threadforrestApr 19, 2023
@aral
Show threadMarcusCSCApr 19, 2023
@aral unless your lesislature fines per means such as Finland
Show threadAngelMountaineerApr 19, 2023
@aral fines are not the issue, it's just that amounts for fines should be relative to income/wealth, not an absolute number.
Show threadRachel MariaApr 19, 2023
@aral 👀
Show threadJJ PetersonApr 19, 2023
@aral this wasn’t a fine. But ok.
Show threadLisPiApr 19, 2023
@aral Asset-proportional fines would fix that.
Show threadAdrian Riskin Apr 19, 2023

@aral

Just as before the US civil war it meant "legal for white people" since punishments for Black people meant whippings, mutilations, and murders. In many cases the laws are unchanged apart from subbing in jail time for brutality.

Show threadSusan Larson ♀️🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️🌈Apr 19, 2023
@aral All fines should automatically increase or reduce based on the target's financial means — a 10$ fine for a poor person should be thousands of dollars for the middle class, and millions of dollars for the rich, billions for corporations.
Show threadRDApr 19, 2023

@aral

https://mstdn.social/@lowqualityfacts/110222050110573258

Low Quality Facts (@[email protected])

Dominion-Fox Settlement: If you want to deceive the American public and undermine democracy it costs $787.5 million. Billionaires, holding out their wallets: I'll take ten please.

Mastodon 🐘
Show threadAviva GaryApr 19, 2023
@aral word
Show threadamdApr 19, 2023
@aral Example: I once knew a VC who would take the HOV lane when alone and just pay the couple of tickets a year they got for violating the rules. They believed the time savings accrued by staying out of traffic was worth the fine.
Show threadAral BalkanApr 19, 2023
@amd A VC, you say. How shocking.
Show threadPatrick MevzekApr 19, 2023
@amd @aral An example explaining why in multiple countries the road fine amount is proportional to your income (verified on the spot by the police agent). So that the "incentive" to not do it is adapted to your wealth.
Show threadTim LavoieApr 19, 2023
@amd @aral Too bad the enforcement took the form of tickets, rather than electronically-controlled moving bollards.
Show threadStevens R MillerApr 19, 2023

@amd @aral

I once knew a guy who said there should be a $50 lane in the Holland Tunnel, on similar logic.

Also, I have represented a few street-level pot dealers. They view the occasional few days in jail every year somewhat like we view paying our taxes: it's a necessary annoyance that comes with making a living. If we got a single bust for dealing pot, our lives would probably be ruined. But a professional? What's one more misdemeanor guilty plea to him?

Show threadP CApr 20, 2023
@amd @aral I think this may be more common than we know. Decades back, my friend had told of someone who had his driver speed regularly on highways and just pay the fine if caught. He valued his time and had the money. #India
Show threadClaudius (legacy account)Apr 21, 2023
@amd
Depending on their hourly rate, sadly, this might be the "right" choice. We need fines relative to income (at least!)
@aral
Show threadFlorian HaasApr 19, 2023

@aral That, plus an update:

https://mastodon.social/@xahteiwi/110221677494174045

Show threadKarel P KerezmanApr 19, 2023
@aral As the delightful, insightful John "Leverage" Rogers often states, "A fine is a price."
Show threadBilly SmithApr 19, 2023

@aral

Only if the fine is a fixed amount. :D

In Finland parking fines are a percentage of your yearly income, so the more money you earn, the more you pay. :D

Show threadAlex@rtnVFRmedia Suffolk UKApr 20, 2023

@BillySmith @aral

fines in UK for larger speeding offences are also proportionate to income (albeit with a top limit, but its a few grand so only the very rich could shrug it off).

However, repeated traffic offences seem much more likely to result in a longer driving ban in UK than in other European countries, which is more of a punishment to a person who is speeding (as they are generally doing so because they enjoy driving)

Show threadcowvinApr 20, 2023
@aral What you do is fine if you can pay this much.
Show threadCP93Apr 20, 2023
@aral
“Guilty until proven wealthy”
Show threadwilliam.maggosApr 20, 2023

@aral

but do we want to lock up people that aren't dangerous? all the options suck. maybe fines that vary by wealth?

Show threadAllen StenhausApr 20, 2023
@aral The only fine this wouldn't entirely apply to would be one based on a percentage of net worth.
Show threadeviloatmeal, resident Death Stranding 2 apologist (arch, btw)Apr 20, 2023
@allenstenhaus @aral I don't think "punishable by tax" as you describe would be much different.
Show threadeviloatmeal, resident Death Stranding 2 apologist (arch, btw)Apr 20, 2023
@allenstenhaus @aral I.e. if you take away one percent of a millionaire's net worth, they're still a millionaire. If you take away one percent of the net worth of someone who spends all their money on rent, they become homeless.
Show threadAllen StenhausApr 20, 2023
@eviloatmeal @aral My net worth is a negative number. If you're concerned poor people would be worse off, I think you'll find it's more likely the opposite. Many poor people have a negative net worth, so they would pay nothing.
Show threadeviloatmeal, resident Death Stranding 2 apologist (arch, btw)Apr 20, 2023
@allenstenhaus @aral Hmm... I suppose. Although I feel like that's what they say about taxes, too.
Show threadwraptileApr 20, 2023
@aral Unless the fine is adjusted to your wealth. Like the news from Finland where dudes get multi-million euro fines for speeding lol
Show threadKevin Karhan Apr 20, 2023

@aral +9001%

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/3/21120476/jeff-bezos-washington-dc-renovate-apartment-home-parking-tickets

Jeff Bezos paid more than $16,000 in parking tickets while renovating his DC mansion

News organization WUSA9 found that people racked up more than $16,000 in parking tickets on the street outside Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos’ new Washington, DC mansion.

The Verge