Mastodawn

In the US, "Black products" can be thought of as falling into one of 3 categories.

1) Made by Black people
2) Made for Black people
3) Black people are the product

Many products are a combination. Football is 2) and 3).

Violent rap is mostly 1) and 3). It's "Black" music made for the white ear. That's how a lot of white US music listeners see Black people. 🤷🏿‍♂️

Trap and dril are definitely *part* of Black music culture, but they're not even close to most of it. But that's how the world sees it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pBYV4bMlg7g

If you go to a Black hair salon, you're more likely to hear Jill Scott playing, than to hear Kodak Black.

A weird thing that I've noticed: when some of my white friends hear a Black person say that they don't listen to rap or hip hop, they assume that means that the Black person listens to "white" music.😬 They genuinely don't realize that the vast majority of Black music is not rap.

This leads to some awkward eye rolls. Usually the Black person doesn't try to explain🤷🏿‍♂️

Many of the white musicians making "Black" music, are attempting to cosplay what they think of as "Black culture." But they're only seeing a tiny fraction of Black culture, seen through the pinhole of a record label producing "Gangster rap" for consumption by suburban white kids. 🙂🙃

At this point, I feel the need to explain that most Black musicians don't actually have face tattoos.🤷🏿‍♂️

Birdman has these kids drawing all over their faces permanently.

Black rappers do this too! You'll often hear rappers claim that other gangster rappers aren't "real," or are "studio gangsters," actors performing a display of what they know white listeners expect to hear from Black people.

You'll also hear Black rappers admitting that they focus their music on the violent topics that white audiences want, and simplifying their lyrical structure, because that is what's required for commercial success in a market where most of the buyers are white suburban kids

I don't need to rehash the origins of rock and roll, blues, jazz, or techno/house music. OK, maybe house music... Where was the "house" referred to in "House music?" And who were the original House DJs? (Hint: Ask any non-racist gay American man over 40, that could really dance when they were younger).

I tell people that in about 50 years, someone will say, "You know, the original rappers were Black!" And no one will believe them. Someone will have to create a long thread about it. 🤡

US music listeners do associate Jack Harlow with "Black culture," but don't associate Adele, Snoh Aelegra, etc, with Black culture, even though the later artists go out of their way to make that association known as respectfully as they can without crossing over into appropriation.🙂🙃

Snoh Aelegra
https://youtu.be/4976Fgvf5Ps

Adele:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rYEDA3JcQqw

This says more about the listener and the framing allowed by our society, than it does about either the musician, or Black people.

Snoh Aalegra - I Want You Around

YouTube

🤔 I know that people love Ted Talks, but for some reason, I keep running into Ted Talk fans that have never seen this one?

White Mike Ted Talk:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1DxHL2i3cZo

What we consider "Black music," is defined by racist systems. The same racist systems that cannot prevent the murder of young Black men, defines that narrow slice of most deviant Black music, as the whole.

Yes, I listen to trap and drill music. No I don't think Violet rap should all be censored. I'm not Nancy Reagan.

Black murder is normal | Michael Smith | TEDxJacksonville

YouTube

What I do think should happen, is that music listeners should understand that what they think of as "Black music" is just a subset of Black music seen through a lense of racism.

US history is full of beauty, violence, wonder, racism, justice, evil, hope, misogyny, respect for others, more racism, collaboration, religious intolerance, and finally, even more racism. The US is a fantastic contradiction, and we rap and sing about it. You can't just take the worst parts, and call that "Black music"

Woozle Hypertwin Feb 19, 2023

@mekkaokereke This is... weird to me (I don't doubt it's true; I know I'm out of touch), because I grew up listening to black blues, jazz, R&B, and soul because that's what my dad (white dude from England, kinda racist in a British way with an added layer of US "conservatism" slathered on over the last few decades, but nonetheless with definite taste in music) listened to.

I thought it would be "white" of me to cite Stevie Wonder, 'Retha, Ray Charles, Sly Stone, and Roberta Flack as some of my favorite Black artists -- but maybe not? [hopeful look]

Tormod Halvorsen Feb 19, 2023

@mekkaokereke

IMHO, black music is the best thing the US has ever exported. I rarely listen to much recorded prior to 1950 due to the audio quality, but still enjoy performances of older tunes re-recorded more recently. Blues, jazz, soul, funk, R&B, fusion. The back catalog is so deep, with AMAZING quality.

Firoozye Feb 19, 2023

@mekkaokereke I enjoy blues. But going to a BB King concert was just too strange. Like BB King was the only black person there. Too dated? An anathema? Just not in and black people were definitely not into it. Freaked me out though. Jazz is completely opposite - the audiences are almost always very mixed. (Not socio-economically - everyone seems well-off and probably well educated). I guess jazz just reinvents itself and never grows old.

jacobian Feb 19, 2023

@mekkaokereke I’ve been enjoying all of your threads recently but this one has been especially eye-opening for me. I’ve got some music homework to do and I’m really looking forward to it. Thank you!

Queer Satanic Feb 19, 2023

@mekkaokereke “ICYMI” had a conversation between Rachelle Hampton and Nadira Goffe about the other direction: when white people are surprised that a Black person like “white” music despite whites being expected to like genres regarded as Black

and that being true even when, like Paramore or, as you said, Adele, white creators are open about their (actual) Black influences

https://overcast.fm/+rlU_rkFjI

The Internet’s Black Emo Renaissance — ICYMI

On today’s episode, Rachelle Hampton is joined by Slate’s Nadira Goffe to discuss Rihanna and Paramore. First, they talk about the Super Bowl halftime show and the discourse that Rihanna sparked, and what she does or doesn’t owe her fans. Then, they look at the new album from Paramore, This Is Why, discusses how the band respects and embraces Black culture, and why Black people feel so connected to the pop punk genre. And don’t miss Rachelle and Nadira’s roundtable discussion with Allegra Frank about Paramore’s latest album. This podcast is produced by Daniel Schroeder, Rachelle Hampton, and Daisy Rosario. Subscribe to Slate Plus at http://slate.com/icymiplus Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

jwill Feb 19, 2023

@mekkaokereke I'd like them to also see the influence in other genres like J-Pop / K-Pop as a linear progression from the boy groups of the 80s, the crossover into pop(BSB/NSync/LFO/98Deg etc) and then further distilled and remixed into J/K-pop. Have had folks talk to me about how hip-hop and R&B sucks but their idol industry faves are using beats created by R&B/HipHop hit makers.

Queen of Anxiety Feb 20, 2023

@mekkaokereke @jwill I was talking about how so much of music started as Black music and someone was like “even boy bands?” And it took me a sec, but the Jackson 5 predated any of the white bands I know of. So yeah. And that’s before getting into all the musical “borrowing” that has gone on. (And considering my lack of knowledge of much music outside of pre-20th century European music, there’s probably other examples I don’t know about.)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Kids_on_the_Block

jwill Feb 20, 2023

@queenofnewyork @mekkaokereke The guy who discovered New Edition sought to create NKOTB as a "white counterpart". And the Wiki says he sought to find a "Michael Jackson-esque" lead singer.👀

New Kids on the Block - Wikipedia

Mike Mathews Feb 20, 2023

@jwill @queenofnewyork @mekkaokereke or one of the most successful "boy bands", The Temptations, who started in the 1950s and hit it big in 1963 and every decade up until the 2000s. Talk about longevity!

https://youtu.be/I3dezFzsNss

Jill 🛸Feb 20, 2023

@jwill @mekkaokereke
"Growl" is one of the top #kpop songs ever by the group #EXO, and it was written by Jayrah Gibson from California: https://thekrazemag.com/latest-updates/2022/1/14/interview-k-pop-songwriter-amp-producer-jayrah-gibson-opens-up-about-his-journey-in-the-industry

INTERVIEW: K-Pop Songwriter & Producer Jayrah Gibson Opens up About his Journey in the Industry — The Kraze

Jayrah Gibson is an American singer-songwriter that is the name behind some of the biggest international K-Pop hit singles that K-Pop fans have loved over the years.

The Kraze

jakobdorof Feb 21, 2023

@mekkaokereke @jwill on the other hand, it’s cool that east asian labels are still creating a mass market audience for those artists and songwriters whose domestic markets left them behind ages ago – and pay them good money and respect for their involvement

worth noting also that the label execs are typically musicians themselves and their hands-on A&R style often pushes those songs in new directions the credited writers wouldn’t go on their own

jwill Feb 22, 2023

@jakobdorof @mekkaokereke I'm happy...content even that they can secure the bag and career build but the domestic audience for R&B never left them.

They just got screwed by the labels boxing artists in and not being open to marketing artists outside the typical areas.

Michael Roufa Feb 20, 2023

@mekkaokereke An incredible resource for music history is Andrew Hickey's "History of Rock Music in 500 Songs." https://500songs.com/ Highly recommend, it shows clearly how rock started as Black music and became co-opted by white musicians.

From this I learned many Black music styles we don't call rock today would have been called rock at the time; white writers in the 70s claimed the term for guitar driven white music and invented names like "girl groups" for groups like The Marvelettes.

A History of Rock Music in 500 Songs

Michael Roufa Feb 20, 2023

@mekkaokereke it's also an incredible project. It's going to take him 10 years to cover all 500 songs at his current rate. He's a bit less than 3 years in at this point.

Noah Cook Feb 20, 2023

@roufamatic @mekkaokereke I remember finding an old book on my parents' many bookshelves as a teen, called "The Meaning of the Blues".

I've been unable to track down the author and there are several books by that title, but it used Blues music as the "pilgrims" (Canturbury-style) to tell the story of Sharecropping and the Great Migration, neither of which were part of my AP US History class.

Chris Trottier Feb 20, 2023

@mekkaokereke Thank you for this outstanding thread.

I've heard artists like Tyler the Creator say they're continuously pigeonholed into "rap" when what they intended to make was pop music.

As far as I'm concerned, so-called "rock" music is just R&B.

Tina Turner is the Queen of Rock. Not of R&B—but rock. It's right there on her Wikipedia bio.

Amelia Bellamy-Royds Feb 20, 2023

@atomicpoet I've seen the same thing happen with folk/roots acts being called blues when they're no more bluesy than most other folk/roots acts — they're just blacker.

And wasn't something similar given as the one possible reason for The Weeknd's infamous Grammy "snub" — the R&B nominating committee thought his was a pop album, while the pop committee assumed it would count as R&B? (Or else it was someone on the committees with a grudge, I don't think a full story ever came out.)
@mekkaokereke

Bruce Mirken Feb 20, 2023

@AmeliaBR @atomicpoet @mekkaokereke With the Grammys, you can never eliminate the possibility of sheer stupidity, which is a decades-long pattern.

Winterbay Feb 20, 2023

@AmeliaBR @atomicpoet @mekkaokereke Ahh yes, the wonders of folk music only being by white musicians from the west. The rest is "world" music. Such a stupid distinction.

Moved to [email protected]Feb 20, 2023

@mekkaokereke The reality is nearly ALL American music is black music. Country, bluegrass, punk, garage, psychedelic, experimental/avant garde, all have deep roots in black culture. Too many people fail to realize this and have this ridiculous narrow idea of what black music is and it all comes down to the racism that continually co-opts and then erases the black element at the origin.

Brendan Halpin Feb 20, 2023

@tlockney @mekkaokereke Black and Black-inspired music has been the most significant cultural export of the USA in the 20th century (& since).

Chuck O'Rourke:verified:Feb 20, 2023

@tlockney @mekkaokereke @alesplin That’s silly. You don’t do anybody anybody any favors by exaggerating like that. Celtic music is important. Native American music is important. Latin music is important. European music is important.

Black music was/is incredibly important but the most important thing to me is it showed people that didn’t need to pretend they weren’t human and steered us away from the awful desperate American need to offer up this creepy plastic veneer.

Alex Feb 20, 2023

@Chuck_ORourke @tlockney @mekkaokereke I would not consider this an exaggeration at all. I cannot think of a contemporary music genre, especially in the US, that was not heavily influenced, if not transformed, by Black music.

Chuck O'Rourke:verified:Feb 20, 2023

@alesplin @tlockney @mekkaokereke Same goes for Black music and the influence of the musics it found in America.

Alex Feb 20, 2023

@Chuck_ORourke @tlockney @mekkaokereke Literally every one of my favorite bands can trace their influence straight to Sister Rosetta Tharpe, and I had _never_ heard of her until I was like 30. So if trying to make sure the pivotal place of Black music in American culture doesn’t get co-opted and whitewashed is a favor to the Black community, it’s a favor I’m happy to pay, in any way I can.

Chuck O'Rourke:verified:Feb 20, 2023

@alesplin @tlockney @mekkaokereke
You could enjoy the music and take it easy on the hyperbole? Sounds like reverse racism and guilt to me.

Talk/tweets/toots < walking the walk

My opinion.

Alex Feb 20, 2023

@Chuck_ORourke @tlockney @mekkaokereke A: there is no such thing as “reverse racism”. Acknowledging the fact that Black people have contributed to American culture while simultaneously being systematically disadvantaged and exploited by American culture is not “reverse racism”. Just fact.

B: It’s not hyperbole. Take Muddy Waters, Chuck Berry, and Sister Rosetta Tharpe out of music history and the vacuum is incalculable.

Stacey Cornelius Feb 19, 2023

@mekkaokereke I recently got very interested in house music and immediately looked up its origins, because I had a funny feeling. Yep.

Matthew Feb 20, 2023

@StaceyCornelius @mekkaokereke House music changed the UK - hugely popular here, changed our culture, the way we socialise (and with whom - people talk about a large black-white socialising divide pre-house that reduced when people danced together), our laws, totally changed our pop music. But I'd guess that single digit percent of the population would know it is black music, or know the names Frankie Knuckles, or Marshall Jefferson, or... well the list is quite long.

CarlRJ Feb 20, 2023

@picard @StaceyCornelius @mekkaokereke would you have any particular canonical examples to recommend listening to?

Matthew Feb 20, 2023

@carlrj @StaceyCornelius @mekkaokereke Just off the top of my head, a few important pieces from the late-80s times:

Frankie Knuckles - Your Love
Frankie Knuckles - Tears
Marshall Jefferson - Move Your Body
Farley Jackmaster Funk - Love Can't Turn Around
Ten City - That's The Way Love Is
CeCe Rogers - Someday

This is only the start of a huge rabbit hole, of course, and there are surely many more worthy of mention, these are just some I enjoy 😄

CarlRJ Feb 20, 2023

@picard @StaceyCornelius @mekkaokereke thank you!

Matthew Feb 20, 2023

@carlrj you're welcome!

bigiain Feb 21, 2023

@picard @carlrj @StaceyCornelius @mekkaokereke Is anyone else going through these (and related discussion) Toots and making a Spotify playlist? (Because I'm supposed to be busy with work, but someone has to do it and maybe it is me?)

Matthew Feb 21, 2023

@bigiain Hopefully somebody mentioned Joe Smooth - Promised Land, or Fingers Inc - Can You Feel It. But if not...

Though the list of this stuff really could go on and on (and on... and on... 😄)

bigiain Feb 22, 2023

@picard This doesn't hang together like a proper DJ set (yet? ever?) but here's what I've got so far: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1E7nQZ8jLnhTYNVVe86A6T?si=179a40f428cc4961

My Playlist #9

bigiain_au · Playlist · 34 songs

Spotify

jonathanpeterson Feb 19, 2024

@bigiain @picard @carlrj @StaceyCornelius @mekkaokereke Just watch Frankie Knuckles doing the thing - Boiler Room set late in his career.
https://youtu.be/644UU55eyzk?feature=shared

Frankie Knuckles Boiler Room NYC DJ Set

YouTube

Melonie Feb 19, 2024

@jonathanpeterson Yes! Love this set

https://youtu.be/bZ60ihbn76o

Matthew Feb 20, 2024

@jonathanpeterson @bigiain @carlrj @StaceyCornelius @mekkaokereke Great documentary on UK TV a couple of decades ago:

Ep1 filled with interviews with the original Chicago guys. Vince Lawrence talking about being usher at 'disco sucks', Steve Silk Hurley demoing how they innovated house from disco, etc. Fantastic stuff.

Ep2 about it coming to UK, the guys being shocked at how well known they were is so lovely.

Ep3 more about UK scene, less Chicago guys.

House Music Documentary Pump Up the Volume Documentary The Complete Series

YouTube

elle mundy Feb 21, 2023

@picard @carlrj @StaceyCornelius @mekkaokereke mr fingers (larry heard), black box, jamie principle, phuture, crystal waters

Matthew Feb 21, 2023

@exchgr So much good stuff from those days!

elle mundy Feb 21, 2023

@picard i still don’t feel like i know enough of it

Stacey Cornelius Feb 22, 2023

@exchgr This vid with Candi Station.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcAW1Jq-_kk

❤️

@picard @carlrj @mekkaokereke

JAMIE PRINCIPLE & CANDI STATON - YOUR LOVE/YOU GOT THE LOVE [HOUSE GOSPEL CHOIR & KIDDY SMILE]

YouTube

Morten Hilker-Skaaning Feb 20, 2023

@picard @StaceyCornelius @mekkaokereke is that why there's the silly focus on djs? (because the djs could be white?)

Matthew Feb 21, 2023

@morten_skaaning Good question about the focus on DJs, not one I know the answer to. Though many of these early pioneers like Knuckles etc were DJs first - who began cutting up, remixing records they played to get the sound they wanted, producing stuff to do to achieve the style in their sets - this is how the sound was rooted, the prominence of DJs is kind of there in the underground scene from the start with these guys.

jonathanpeterson Feb 19, 2024

@picard @StaceyCornelius @mekkaokereke to be fair, ska (two tone) was purposefully multiracial well before house.