BIG NEWS: #TyreNichols’ murder reminds us that #police traffic stops can turn deadly. 400 unarmed drivers killed in 5 years.
I'm introducing the "Safer Traffic Stops Act". It would pay local governments to transfer traffic enforcement from armed police officers to cameras or civilians.
@alpha1beta But why would armed drug dealers kill anyone over a traffic ticket?
The reason traffic stops turn deadly is because we use them as a pretext for cops to catch more serious criminals. But if it was just a ticket and not a warrant check, roadside search, and other investigations; nobody would care.
As usual, the solutions we’ve been doing cause the biggest problems we face; including how The War on Drugs makes every problem associated with drugs far worse.
@biobrain Because folks who are armed and dangerous and they're forced to ID themselves.
For anyone with anything illegal it'll set off fight/flight.
And to any decent cop, you're going to look much closer if they have a record.
These folks are criminal masterminds, they're drugs are typically in plain sight. The second they see flashing lights they know they're going to ail, and they have seconds to decide what to do
@alpha1beta Everything you're describing is caused by the current system and the scenario you gave would get an armed cop killed the same as a civilian since guns can't stop bullets.
Imagine if criminals knew that cops wouldn't check their record or arrest them even if drugs were in plain site? Why would they risk life in prison or execution over a $100 speeding ticket or expired tags?
Again, our solutions are causing the biggest problems; including the War on Drugs itself.
@biobrain And alternative is let drug dealers, murders etc roam the streets knowing they will never be caught by accident.
That's a stupid ass idea.
Even if you changed it today, you'd have dumb criminals for years who'd shoot the unarmed civilian traffic "cops" because they don't know about it - and that assumes it was universal and not one city at a time. Like oh shit, I got pulled over...am I within the city limits is gonna be how you decide fight/flight?
@alpha1beta Again, in your scenario an armed cop is MORE likely to get killed than an unarmed traffic cop because they're a bigger threat. Guns can't stop bullets.
And yes, criminals shouldn't be caught by harassing random citizens hoping to find them by accident. And I want to legalize all drugs because the War on Drugs makes everything worse, including them needing to kill cops to escape.
And this is a federal law, so it can be universal. This is how they do things in other countries too.
@biobrain and Legalization doesn't stop drug dealers. CO has threatened to make it illegal due to a rise in related crimes, after an initial fall the first year or two. CA has has many issues with legal dispensaries having illegal black markets and the harms of pot are only beginning to be studied in earnest.
Mark my words, in 100 years we're going to look back on this time period (legalizing stuff, especially pot), like we look at cigarettes today. I've gonna get that written on my tombstone.
@alpha1beta If all drugs were legal nationally and priced properly there couldn't be a black market. Again, the problems you're describing are caused by our current solutions.
Just so you know, I've put a lot of thought into this and debated it with many people. Try telling me something I haven't heard before that wasn't debunked with my statement: Our solutions are causing the problems.
And I look at drug prohibition the same as alcohol prohibition: It caused bigger problems.
@biobrain You're also making the assumption that its just minor little tickets and not reckless driving or actions that critically endanger people's lives or that a cop doesn't pull someone over because they see something while they're say returning from another call. What are they supposed to do, call a civilian while a drunk driver continues on?
I get your point. One of my favorite cities in the world (Ithaca, NY) has been trying to do something similar. But it's not that simple.
@biobrain This article has a write up on how Ithaca is proposing to divide duties, missing one that I know was previously mentioned - car accidents would be civilian + EMS as needed. Traffic generally could be handled by both.
Ithaca Voice reporter Jimmy Jordan contributed reporting to this article. ITHACA, N.Y.—More than a year after the Reimagining Public Safety process was jumpstarted with much fanfare, the city can finally lay its eyes on concrete ideas for the future of policing in Ithaca. The City of Ithaca published its final recommendations report on implementing the […]
@biobrain I'm not generally opposed to it, but there's no way to implement it without causing more harm in the short term.
This plan wouldn't meet your needs, really, cops are still going to be the primary for traffic - their only planning to hire 5 civilians. Honestly, you'd probably be better off telling the cops to put their gun in the trunk instead of their belt.
@alpha1beta All the harm is caused by our current system. We're not only putting civilians at risk of being shot by cops but cops are more at risk too.
And this bill would give national funding for plans like Ithaca's. It's not banning armed traffic stops, but funding civilian traffic cops. And if details need to be worked out, they can.
@biobrain funding = incentives. It doesn't do anything to mandate it. So you end up in a patchwork system that, like in NJ, could have a different response every half a mile of highway. That doesn't work - drug dealers, among other lowlife criminals, aren't smart enough to say oh, this guy's only a civilian let's not run or shoot them.
When I've been pulled over, I haven't always known what agency is doing it and I generally know where I am and am never on drugs or any sort.
@alpha1beta Yes, you're right. Some criminals panic and wouldn't know if a cop is armed or unarmed. An armed cop would die the same as an unarmed cop.
Why do you keep repeating this nonsense? Having a gun doesn't protect cops from being shot by someone ready to kill them. That's why they shoot people they even THINK have a gun.
@alpha1beta You're right. Most criminals will run away due to our current system and cops will risk their lives and the lives of civilians trying to stop them for the original crime of speeding or expired tags. And if they shoot, they'll shoot immediately and the cop will die whether or not they're armed.
And cops use traffic stops as a pretext to find other crimes, which makes criminals more likely to be scared.
Why do you keep proving my point? Our current system is the problem.
@biobrain Every system is broken. Yours would let criminal scum run around unstopped. You'll see more drug trafficking, gun running, DUI etc because who's gonna stop me.
You're saying a new system will be better, without considering any new risk, and prioritizing the lives of criminals over the innocent.
Are there improvements that can be made? Sure. Locking drug dealers up for life would arguable be a better one - less on the street, higher risk of becoming one.
@biobrain So your point, while well intended, is based on some alternative reality, without being tested. It's mental masturbation. It's not real.
You think Texas would ever, ever do this? No way.
Every system is a problem. Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant. And any new system will be a problem too. If we wanted to improve things, we should look at root causes - why do people deal drugs? For most, its probably the best economic activity for them.
@alpha1beta No, my system prioritizes the safety of cops and civilians who are being put at risk as we harass millions of citizens hoping to stumble upon serious crimes. And cops could focus on REAL crimes, not traffic stops.
And there would be no drug trafficking if we legalized drugs nationally. Even in states where it's legal they need lots of stupid regulations because it's not legal everywhere.
Please, stop for a moment and think about this. I'm not going to keep doing this.
@biobrain More cops dies of their own stupidity from COVID than anything else. You're saying let the criminals run free to save...checks notes...60 police gun deaths total in 2022...and there's 11,654 alcohol related traffic deaths in 2020 - and ~1000 deaths by cops in any circumstances at all.
You're right, let's do not this anymore, your living in a pipe dream and you want society to bend to your will because you want to do drugs and face no consequences.
@the_ray_archie @alpha1beta @biobrain great response. Without getting into motives, the police community insists on the traffic stops to prevent all other sorts of crime, when in reality it’s the equivalent of finding a needle in a stack of other needles.
If law enforcement stops 100 cars, and 1 of them had drugs, is that a win for the community? Will we pretend that there aren’t other ways to find 1 drug dealer? Will we pretend that stopping 99 innocent people doesn’t have its own cost?
@mannsworld @alpha1beta @biobrain Exactly. I reported a "drug store" recently and was pleasantly surprised to see an increased police presence which resulted in a 2 month shut down (and no shots fired)
Accuracy, diligence, accountability... we can do better and improve the system.
@alpha1beta lol. When I go fishing, I don't troll. I look for the birds, read my radar, and read the water. "Fish where the fish are" is the saying. =)
As for my tip... I like safe neighborhoods and we all do our part.
@the_ray_archie I'm not suggesting that's the only solution. So this bill's full text is not yet available, but from his post, it says traffic violates to civilians and cameras. I know some places, Ithaca, NY for one (https://ithacavoice.com/2022/03/city-introduces-long-awaited-plans-for-department-of-community-safety-in-sweeping-recommendations-report/ is a good read) are considering handing some traffic stops to civilians.
And there's many problems with that that don't do much to actually solve any of the issues at hand.
Ithaca Voice reporter Jimmy Jordan contributed reporting to this article. ITHACA, N.Y.—More than a year after the Reimagining Public Safety process was jumpstarted with much fanfare, the city can finally lay its eyes on concrete ideas for the future of policing in Ithaca. The City of Ithaca published its final recommendations report on implementing the […]
The cameras are a mixed bag IMO. in my state, red light cameras are unconstitutional and were found to be ineffective - running red lights didn't decrease.
Automated cameras could become a racket to raise money and hurt those, especially those that may not be able to afford it, and they run the risk of abuse (storing records for too long, using it for pattern analysis etc)
And they're expensive to deploy with money leaving your local community.
@the_ray_archie So with a brother who's a cop, he'll tell you 100%, no its not. Everything happens too fast - if someone's visible drunk, you have to act right away.
In NJ, we can call a number to report texting while driving and a letter will get mailed to them warning them, could cops do similar with taillights or other minor vehicle maintenance? Probably - the only thing there is can you speed up that process enough that sending a letter over an immediate stop doesn't risk others.
@alpha1beta In Berkeley and Oakland, they suspended 'nuisance' reasons for pulling people over. Police can't pull people over for taillights and minor cosmetic stuff. I think that's an interesting thing to consider beyond just the city level.
In NYC, the meter maid crew will worry about registration and tag stuff. An officer in a car would never pull you over for that (they are too busy)
Which brings us back to real traffic violations and drunk driving....
@the_ray_archie The first part certainly seems reasonable and workable - it could be as simple as an automated letter or phone call, at least to a certain point.
With both, you also have find ways to encourage proper use. I've heard horror stories about small highway towns in places like TX that make the entire town's budget from traffic stops. You'd have to get those type of places on board.
@alpha1beta @RitchieTorres I'm not sure what those drug dealers would do to the cameras.
If we can eliminate toll booth jobs, I'm pretty sure we can automate speeding tickets.
@the_ray_archie valid point, although that would probably hurt society more as a whole, depending on how sensitive the system is and every red light camera I know of is pay it and plead guilty or risk getting points for fighting it. In my state its unconstitutional and unless you had 100% coverage, you'd mostly just get people who slow down at certain points and speed back up, doing no real good.
But there's plenty of things you can get pulled over for that can't be automated - DUI etc.
@alpha1beta Honestly, we have more than enough technology to detect this behavior. There's a possible privacy issue if a cat is always flagged but... watching over a certain distance def seems possible. Hmmmm. This also addresses the subjective issues mentioned earlier.
In addition to cameras, we already have mics that detect shots. They could easily be used to detect tire screeching
@the_ray_archie Completely agree - but it should be from both ends. Use tech to target bad cops and the worst drivers. But privacy and data retention need to be considered too.
ShotSpotter seems like it's a bit of a fraud. AP had a recent company doc showing its often humans, not AI and they're pushed to find things to be gunshots when they're unsure. https://apnews.com/article/shotspotter-artificial-intelligence-investigation-9cb47bbfb565dc3ef110f92ac7f83862
CHICAGO (AP) — In more than 140 cities across the United States, ShotSpotter’s artificial intelligence algorithm and intricate network of microphones evaluate hundreds of thousands of sounds a year to determine if they are gunfire, generating data now being used in criminal cases nationwide.
@alpha1beta I think they opened the API to apps. In NYC, a lot of the data is coming from apps like CitizenApp.
The privacy issue on this is the problem. Ring opening up data to police comes to mind.
@the_ray_archie I really appreciate how you phrased this. It's such a great question - the spreadsheet loving part of me says you could create a formula for enforcement costs vs lives saved, but on the other hand, some people would say even one life saved is worth it.
I guess I'd come away in the middle - if you save 400 lives by stopping drunk drivers, as long as you haven't caused similar harm, its probably a worthy investment.
@the_ray_archie That would be pretty funny. In the future, you're car would probably pull itself over, perhaps based on an AI or someone watching on a video.
Speaking of which, driver-less cars would solve almost all of this.
@alpha1beta Exactly. If I had a driverless car, it'd be working as a Lyft driver 90% of the time. My car is mainly parked these days.
If you do the math, it's cheaper to mainly do Lyft/Uber in most major cities than to own and fuel a new car. In the future, I hope there's some sort of decentralized ownership (timeshare model)
@the_ray_archie You mentioned Houston before, are you from there or a major city?
I'm from a very built up suburbia in NJ, last ~10 years in pretty rural NJ. I wonder how much our experiences and differences in policing affects our views on this.
In my part of the world, you cannot live without a car. Public transit is for getting to NYC or Newark and that's about it and Uber isn't reliable.
@alpha1beta I've been in media tech for TV and radio. My platforms are primarily streaming and real time streaming ad platforms. From the geek side, I have been fascinated with defining/monetizing inventory that's not clearly fixed. With hotels or planes, we have a fixed number of seats but with radio we don't have that clarity until you start thinking about "personality profiles"
I left that career to think more about how to apply similar strategies on behalf of creatives.
Rep. Ritchie Torres
Michael
Doctor Biobrain
the_ray_archie
K Manns
MT Nickerson