Rick MonroFeb 4, 2023

Discovered during the week I was unable to access a Kindle book purchased in 2013. Reason? The order was “too old”, and refund issued to buy again. Which was pointless as the book is now more expensive than when I bought it.

Subsequently discovered 66(!!) other ebooks no longer available for download.

Currently 40 minutes in to a support chat with Amazon.

About to learn, I think, whether we purchase ebooks, or rent them…

[Edit: documenting progress in this thread https://mastodon.online/@monro/109812445178130161]

Rick Monro (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image The problem first appeared last week, when I attempted to open a book on my Kindle. The book cover appeared in my Library as normal. When I tapped on it, the following message appeared:

Mastodon
Show threadRick Monro

Outcome after 1 hour: I need to repurchase each book, then reclaim from Amazon.

Tech. Nol. O. Gy.

Feb 4, 2023 at 11:57amWeb
Show threadFrancesco Orsenigo (he/him)Feb 4, 2023

@monro This is not a problem with technology, this is a problem with who technology gives power to.

If you don't control an ebook you paid for, you didn't "buy" it, you rented it.

Show threadJoshFeb 5, 2023

@xarvh @monro It's a problem of lack of regulation I think. But also it's like how "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is *technically* correct but doesn't absolve gun manufacturers of blame. Major tech companies are quite happy to stifle regulation in the name of "freedom" just like gun manufacturers.

I suppose there's a distinction to be made between tech and the Tech Industry.

Show threadFrancesco Orsenigo (he/him)Feb 5, 2023
@krnlg @monro
I prefer to see it as a cultural problem, where we assume that big companies are trustworthy and giving them power over our lives is just the way things are and the only way things can be.
Any form of power and control *WILL* be abused.
Regulations can come as a consequence of this cultural shift, but are not THE solution.
Show threadJoshFeb 5, 2023
@xarvh @monro I like that observation. Yes, I think you're right..
Show threadFrancesco Orsenigo (he/him)Feb 5, 2023
@krnlg <3
Show threadJason BurnettFeb 4, 2023

@monro What do you mean by "reclaim from Amazon"? Do you mean that after you repurchase it, they'll refund your money? Or something else?

After reading of your experience, I just checked my Kindle books. My oldest books, purchased back in 2009, are still there, but I have no idea how many in between now and then might have gone missing...

Show threadRick MonroFeb 4, 2023
@jason_burnett That’s it - I’ve been asked to repurchase and notify Amazon for each missing book, then a refund
Show threadJason BurnettFeb 4, 2023
@monro That sounds so frustrating. Sorry to hear you're having to do this.
Show threadJohnny HuynhFeb 5, 2023
@monro @jason_burnett Sorry to hear you’re going through this. Thanks for sharing your experience here.
Show threadRick MonroFeb 5, 2023
@johnnyxhuynh @jason_burnett Hi, I'm having diffiulty keeping up with individual replies to this, so adding full detail to the original thread. Thx https://mastodon.online/@monro/109812445178130161
Rick Monro (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image The problem first appeared last week, when I attempted to open a book on my Kindle. The book cover appeared in my Library as normal. When I tapped on it, the following message appeared:

Mastodon
Show threadpcbeardFeb 5, 2023

@monro @jason_burnett I recently had an order for a $20 item get lost in shipment, so after waiting a couple of weeks I called Amazon customer service and they shipped me another item within 2 days, without charging me again. They accounted for the new item as if it was a gift card purchase. Surely they could do that with your eBook purchases.

This is one argument for why removing DRM from eBook purchases should be protected as fair-use.

Show threadRobert Weißgraeber🇪🇺Feb 4, 2023
@monro sounds like a class action suit incoming
Show threadL'égrégore André ꕭꕬFeb 5, 2023
@rw007 @monro Unfortunately not: "Kindle Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider." / Kindle ToS wall of text.
(I remembered writing about it back in '13 and looked it up again)
Show threadRobert Weißgraeber🇪🇺Feb 5, 2023
@Mabande @monro well, the button says „Buy“ - judges might see that a higher notion than hidden small print for consumers?
Show threadBadExampleMan 🟣Feb 5, 2023
@rw007 @Mabande @monro You are buying the license as outlined in the wall o'text...
Show threadL'égrégore André ꕭꕬFeb 5, 2023
@BadExampleMan @rw007 @monro Exactly.
The shift that needs to be made is making the legal system get that the average ToS /EULA is too complex for the average buyer/user to properly understand.
After that, the "Buy" button would change to something along the lines of "Buy the license" (but more obfuscated until the next legal battle).
Show threadStef JuckerFeb 5, 2023
@Mabande @monro @rw007 Apparently a class action lawsuit was filed against amazon in California in 2020: https://www.wongfleming.com/digital-media-ownership-what-does-it-mean-to-purchase-or-buy-digital-media/ (I don't know what came of it - I've only just started googling the subject)
Digital Media Ownership: What does it mean to "purchase" or "buy" digital media? - Wong Fleming

June 9, 2020 | by Kishan P. Bhavsar In a recently filed lawsuit, a court may have to decide whether online providers of entertainment content are violating consumer protection laws when they claim to allow […]

Wong Fleming
Show threadStef JuckerFeb 5, 2023
@monro @Mabande @rw007 It was dismissed because the plaintiff never lost access to any of the purchased videos...
Show threadMatt Knight (KN6HTM)Feb 4, 2023
@monro I’ve just checked some old my oldest books and I seem to be able to download all of them. Struggling to find exact dates for when I bought them but I’m guessing 2012 or older. Is there a pattern or indicator for which ones can’t be downloaded?
Show threadGreenSkyOverMe (Monika)Feb 4, 2023
@monro holy maccheroni
Show threadgaro  Feb 5, 2023
@monro A-Maz-Ing! ugh
Show threadJindoFoxFeb 5, 2023
@monro Did they offer to refund your money? Did you consider demanding it? Their solution is unacceptable.
Show threadRick MonroFeb 5, 2023
@jindofox I’m going to try with 5 initially, see how long it takes, then consider options..!
Show threadMichael HannemannFeb 5, 2023
@monro are they going to refund the original purchase price? (I'm guessing not.)
Show threadRick MonroFeb 5, 2023
@mhannemann Going to try out with a few books first - which are now more expensive than forst time round- and see how the process works
Show threadThe DoctorFeb 5, 2023
@monro Working as designed.
Show threadWilhelm FitzpatrickFeb 5, 2023
@monro I've a confirmed habit to download & rip every book shortly after I buy it. Seems like I'm just paranoid enough 😔
Show threadMortSinyxFeb 5, 2023

ah @rafial, relevant xkcd by randall @monro here:

Thinking of buying from audible.com or iTunes?

Remember, if you unauthorizedly copy something, it’s yours for life. You can take it anywhere and it will always work.

Flowchart: (You’re a Criminal)<-Unauthorizedly Copy<-(Buy or Unauthorizedly Copy)->Buy->(Things Change)->(You Try to Recover Your Collection)->(You’re a Criminal)

But if you buy DRM-locked media, and you ever switch operating systems or new technology comes along, your collection could be lost.

And if you try to keep it, you’ll be a criminal (DMCA 1201).

So remember: if you want a collection you can count on, UNAUTHORIZEDLY COPY IT.

Hey, you’ll be a criminal either way.

(If you don’t like this, demand DRM-free files)

Show threadJulio Ojeda-ZapataFeb 5, 2023
@monro Ugh.
Show threadCenobyte Feb 5, 2023
@monro Every book I buy from Amazon I strip the drm using Calibre and a couple other tools.
Never trust these things to drm and proprietary formats.
Show threadno dreamer, no eater of leavesFeb 7, 2023
@cenobyte
I tried to do that, and it was so difficult that I gave up and pirated copies of the books that I'd already bought (I no longer had a functional Kindle at that point). Nowadays I have a Kobo reader, which lets me read library books instead!
@monro
Show threadVolkerFeb 5, 2023
@monro
I guess I should check my ebooks from Amazon, to. I hadn't had a look since years ...
Show threadVolkerFeb 5, 2023
@monro
Ok, I checked. I can download all ebooks back to the first one in 2011, even those that are no longer available in the store.
Show threadRick MonroFeb 5, 2023
@EinPhysiker Hi, I'm having diffiulty keeping up with individual replies to this, so adding full detail to the original thread. Thx https://mastodon.online/@monro/109812445178130161
Rick Monro (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image The problem first appeared last week, when I attempted to open a book on my Kindle. The book cover appeared in my Library as normal. When I tapped on it, the following message appeared:

Mastodon
Show threadNickyWFeb 5, 2023
@monro having been a relatively early adopter of digital forms of music, books and films, and user of cloud storage, I am now going back to physical forms and storage at home for reasons like this.
Show threadlevampyreFeb 5, 2023
@monro How many of the books are "out of print"/unavailable now? Physical books can get lost, too. Had several in my library from the early 1900s that got lost during the war. But 2013 is really not that far away.
Show threadRick MonroFeb 5, 2023
@levampyre All still available as far as I can tell… just not in my own library 😞
Show threadArneBabFeb 5, 2023

@levampyre According to a EU court ruling, you are also not allowed to re-sell ebooks, so once they go out of "print", they are completely removed from circulation.

Underhanded preparation for digital book-burning.

https://curia.europa.eu/juris/documents.jsf?nat=or&mat=or&pcs=Oor&jur=C%2CT%2CF&num=C-263%252F18&for=&jge=&dates=&language=en&pro=&cit=none%252CC%252CCJ%252CR%252C2008E%252C%252C%252C%252C%252C%252C%252C%252C%252C%252Ctrue%252Cfalse%252Cfalse&oqp=&td=%3BALL&avg=&lgrec=en&page=1&text=C%25E2%2580%2591263%252F18&lg=&cid=1741676

@monro

CURIA - List of results

Show threadOpenDNA⚙️Feb 5, 2023
@monro Sounds like an exec is trying to goose sales volume to justify a promotion.
Show threadeviloatmeal, resident Death Stranding 2 apologist (arch, btw)Feb 5, 2023
@monro Technology is great. It really simplifies the process of borrowing books from your friends (and you don't even have to return them!)

Or you could rent books from Amazon, I guess... That's also a thing that you can do with technology, I guess...
Show threadThe Lady ParabellumFeb 5, 2023
@monro using Calibre one can back up their purchased Kindle books and strip the DRM off of them, then send them back to their Kindle for no cost. Amazon can whack an account with zero warning, and everything you "bought" is gone- I prefer to own what I buy, ebooks are often more expensive than print, so I don't buy into the "rent-thing"
Show threadRev. GothAliceFeb 5, 2023

@monro And this is why I capture all digital information entering my network, and have automation to strip DRM. So far the most successful at blocking such stripping has been Apple's FairPlay, and even then, it's been exploitable.

Books are especially egregious; I'm essentially an archivist/librarian making use of Fair Dealing here in Canada. Hundreds of thousands of works, all DRM-free, covering several centuries. (P. Gutenberg, every Popular Mechanics from 1902, 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica…)

Show threadRev. GothAliceFeb 5, 2023
@monro Downside: debatably legal for me to possess, understandably illegal for me to reproduce or share in any meaningful way. (Especially to non–Canadians or those outside Canada not covered by Fair Dealing.) 😭
Show threadRev. GothAliceFeb 5, 2023
(Automation to help convey that such transformation is automated and routine; not user-directed or targeting specific media. All garbage locks are broken equally.)
Show threadBarbara TateFeb 5, 2023
@monro
Interesting - after reading your original post, I checked mine and they are all still OK. A few of the older ones (back to 2012) weren't able to be opened in the online reader but were still working on my (Android and Amazon) devices.
Show threadRagnell the Mildly UnpleasantFeb 5, 2023
@monro So Amazon thinks we've been renting them.
Show threadWilloby✨Feb 5, 2023
@monro huh. so my approach of buying the books i have read either as e-book or audiobooks, which i will want to read more than once or use in my studies is not foolish after all.
Show threadAlFeb 5, 2023
@monro You need to start a betting pool on how many refund requests get denied and how many books you rebuy get deleted because you got the refund. I’ve got $10 for three and two
Show threaddraNgNonFeb 6, 2023
@monro ...how... is this different from an NFT?
Show threadUtopiah (Fabien Benetou)Feb 6, 2023
@monro please be mindful of what this means in this context. Namely you thought you bought a copy the 1st time but this terrible experience proves you didn't.