Will
Eugen RochkoChecking out @ivory!
Roman Zakharovit’s amazing 🤩
AstroKiste 🏴
ij
fuomag9
ottergauze@ottergauze @ij @Gargron @ivory while I agree that they have incurred in a sudden loss of revenue and increased developement, I’d rather pay one time because subscriptions are too expensive and you can’t continue using it when you’re not paying anymore
@ottergauze @fuomag9 @Gargron @ivory Yup, a lifetime option for 50.- would be ok as well... or a general one-time price of 5.- and a premium in-app price of 10.- per year or something...
I just think, a premium price tag of 30.-/year will drive away potential users.
It's a difficult thing to find a good price...
@ottergauze @fuomag9 @Gargron @ivory Sure, and it's not like I don't want to pay for software, but I still think it's too high. Maybe reducing the price by 5.- and additionally grant a discount for previous Tweetbot buyers would be nice.
San D. Uno@ij @ottergauze @fuomag9 @Gargron
Same here, I honestly rather paying for @icecubesapp where the app is more complete and source code is available.
Same here, I honestly rather paying for @icecubesapp where the app is more complete and source code is available.
RRR
Jeff MoePlease no!
Please don't spread proprietary apps on Mastodon. This will be the downfall. We'll just have another tw*tter.
Nordnick 
As far as I can tell, there is no source code availability, nor ability to share the code, for example.
Dag Ågren ↙︎↙︎↙︎@WAHa_06x36 @nick @Gargron @ivory
Is it about making money then? Just that?
To me, the goal of a small "d" democratic Mastodon is far more important than some cute proprietary app that isn't needed to use the service.
There are plenty of people that have shown you can make money doing open source, if that is what is important.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_models_for_open-source_software
Paul-Vincent Roll (he/him)@jebba @nick @Gargron @ivory You need money to survive in modern society. It has to come from somewhere. If you want people to actually put their efforts into making good software, you have to pay them, or they will either starve or stop doing it.
And no open-source business model applies to user-facing apps. You can make money off complicated server software where you can sell support contracts and similar. But you can't do that for an app for users.
@WAHa_06x36 @nick @Gargron @ivory
There are lots of companies that do this, fwiw.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_models_for_open-source_software
@jebba None of those work for user-facing apps. I've written and released big software both as open source and commercially, so I am talking from quite a fair bit of experience here.
What software?
@jebba Absolutely not. There's nothing evil about commercial software, this is an ideological fallacy.
There's plenty of evil software companies, but that is because capitalism is evil, not that charging for software is.
I never said charging for software is bad.
As someone that did an FSF project, you know that Free Software is about user freedom, not about price. People often charge for free software.
@ottergauze @nick @Gargron @ivory
It's not a problem *today*, but it always turns into one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish
One proprietary app will get the dominant market share, then Microsoft, Google, or whoever will come buy it and screw everyone.
David Slifka@jebba @ottergauze @nick @Gargron @ivory how would that work exactly? ie say that ivory became the dominant client and Microsoft bought it; how could they screw everyone, given that users can switch without losing their social graph?
@davidslifka @ottergauze @nick @Gargron @ivory
That's a good question. It is because of inertia. Everyone knows that Facebook is screwing them and everyone else, yet so many feel "stuck" and can't leave.
In fact, the same thing is happening with Twitter. Think of all the users that *want* to leave, but it is *their* social graph on a *proprietary* system.
So if Microsoft gets say, 30% of Mastodon users via buyouts of proprietary corps, they can start 'extending'. Ug. ChatGPT+Mastodon.
@jebba @davidslifka @ottergauze @Gargron @ivory
But we talk here about an app... that's just a frontend... you can use several clients... and they just allow "remote" handling of your account on an instance.
And remember, the #Fediverse is the _federated_ universe...
@nick @davidslifka @ottergauze @Gargron @ivory
If an oligarch takes control of a significant portion of Mastodon, it will be through things like proprietary apps and large servers that get taken over. We're paving the way for them by connecting apps that they can take over, extend, and screw everyone.
If we keep the code under users' control, they're screwed not us. Lets keep them screwed, and free the users of corporate control.
@jebba @davidslifka @ottergauze @Gargron @ivory
How should an oligarch take control of a significant portion of Mastodon?
Btw.: #Mastodon is just one type of #Fediverse service.
@nick @davidslifka @ottergauze @Gargron @ivory
By taking over the largest Mastodon/Fediverse protocol servers and the largest end user applications. Via money. Like they did with github, jabber, etc.
@jebba @davidslifka @ottergauze @Gargron @ivory
I see your point.
Of course it is possible to try to take over also open standards.
Like for example Microsoft is attacking the e-mail standard.
It is up to us all to avoid such companies and their products.
@nick @davidslifka @ottergauze @Gargron @ivory
Here's an example, just from today.
ADS-B Exchange was set up for hobbyist / airplane geeks.
It just sold for $20 million (pocket change), and now @elonjet has to move...
And all those hobbyists that spent their time building ADS-B Exchange have to decide whether to stay or build a new network (to be taken over, yet again...).
@davidslifka @ottergauze @nick @Gargron @ivory
I reading more, I see you can move your social graph with Mastodon, which is great.
That just means they'll hire someone to figure out how to make it so you can't move your social graph, probably via extendend features.
For example, with github, you can move your git archive, but you lose the "extended" features of github.
@jebba @davidslifka @ottergauze @Gargron @ivory
Of course, someone could invent a new federated platform... but still it should federate via #ActivityPub.
Each #Fediverse platform comes with special features... #Mastodon, #Friendica, #Pixelfed, #PeerTube, ...
Also forks of them exist, e.g. of #Mastodon.
But still you have thousands of instances... that federate... and in case of, are able to defederate harmful instances.
@nick @davidslifka @ottergauze @Gargron @ivory
The ones using proprietary software, such as iPhone, get data, including my and other peoples' data, sent to Apple.
Just by connecting it to the network, it reduces the privacy of *everyone*.
Mathias Gmeiner@jebba hm. I don’t think Tweetbot was the problem with/at Tw*ttr
I don't know what Tweebot is.
The problem with twitter is it is centralized, proprietary software controlled by an oligarch.
@jebba Tweetbot was a iOS client for Twitter. Before they shut down the API for third parties. The company behind Ivory is the same as Tweetbot. Mastodon is distributed with Ivory the same way it is without it.
Kevin RussellLinux is free. Linux and all the apps are available in a thousand distros. Its getting better, every single day. The Mars helicopter runs linux, and the Mars Rovers, and ten of the top ten fastest largest computers, and the largest or second largest OS used by devs and coders, and IBM bought Red Hat, and all they got, was a stable of brilliant coders, designers who love linux.
Linux is free, get it today. Ubuntu, Fedora, Mint.
Tim@jebba how? Can you give an example.
For example, what google did with the Jabber chat protocol. Anyone could set up a server, and it was nice and distributed, just like Mastodon.
Then Google added Jabber support (now called XMPP) to their chat app. Everyone cheered. Yay! Google! Now way more people can chat! Since jabber and gmail people could chat, more people using other jabber services just started using google instead.
Once google had a large enough market, they turned off jabber connections. The end.
@jebba just like Facebook did back in the day... Yeah I understand your concerns with this.
But I'm not really that scared that Ivory/Tapbots will do something like this. They create great apps that are easy to use. I tried the app earlier today on my iPad and one of the first screens explains the concept of the fediverse and that there are multiple instances.
We need to worry once a big tech company tries take control of it or "participate" in it.
Why wouldn't they? If they have market success MSFT or whoever just buys them and the new policies come in.
It's really irrelevant how "good" the app is. You don't even know what it is really doing!
Is it sending your data to Cambridge Analytica?
I guess I should also point out, since it is closed, *you have no idea what it is doing*.
It can zip up all your files and mail them to Peter Thiel, for all you know.
Luis Medinas@jebba but you can continue to use Jabber which is an opensource protocol and has plenty of clients. You should never have trusted on Google to keep Jabber alive for you. This problem is very different from having developers creating great apps and getting money from them to live.
I didn't trust google to keep Jabber alive for me. I didn't use their chat. I used a jabber client.
The day google turned off jabber connections, I lost nearly all my contacts because so many moved to Google. And now Jabber is just fringe usage.
They aren't "great apps" if they are proprietary. They have a fatal flaw in that they are designed to screw the user, not serve them. You have no idea what your "great app" is actually doing!
Ricky BUsing proprietary software threatens the whole network though. For example, my posts here, even though I am using Debian/Firefox, will be processed by others using proprietary software. The owners of that software are exploiting me, not just the people running the software.
For example, I don't have a Facebook account, yet it AI mines my image (which I never uploaded) and is a threat to me, and society at large.