Mastodawn

Oli Jan 18, 2023

@fencoul unless the GE somehow results in PR and another GE , not much will change
Starmer isnt a member of the trilateral commission or a knight of the realm because of his appetite for change
#Starmer

Fen C Jan 18, 2023

@OliverNoble

👆 Which is why I want Labour to win - but NOT with an overall majority...so that they need support from pro-#PR parties to form a government...who can then twist LAB's arm to get #PR to actually happen, and - if they backslide - can threaten to withdraw support & crash the government.

That's the only way we're getting #PR IMO...

EPK Jan 24, 2023

@fencoul @OliverNoble
Unfortunately Starmer and Thornberry’s short sightedness and big mouths have ensured that up to 50 SNP seats will not be available for coalition. In trying to out-Tory the Tories with regard to Brexit, the NHS and Scottish independence that ship has now sailed.

Fen C

@EPK @OliverNoble

👆 Fortunately all bets are off in the few days of horse-trading after a #GeneralElection.

"I'm about to let #ForceMajeure make me do things I said I'd never do."

Maybe LAB need it to look like they were forced into #PR?

(In a "make it look like an accident, Mr. Bond" style.)

@fencoul @EPK @OliverNoble Cameron promised his own party a referendum on Europe thinking in a continuing coalition the LibDems would stop him having to do it. It doesn't do to depend on things like that.

always better to actually make the argument for the change you believe in. but of course, labour doesn't believe in any damn thing.

@StrangeNoises @fencoul @EPK @OliverNoble

Ach - I wil never defend Starmer, I think he's massively flawed in lots of ways but Labour is so screwed without playing the tory game. MSM are so right wing biased and jump down the parties throat, he just has to appear kinda bland? and not really radical to actually have a chance of getting in and making a change.

At the moment it's his to lose, I do hope this is all strategy and he comes out with a spine and some decent policies if he wins.

@deepblue1990 @fencoul @EPK @OliverNoble all that may be true, but it affects what sort of mandate he would have after the election to do the stuff people hope (without much cause imho) he really wants to do.

@StrangeNoises @fencoul @EPK @OliverNoble goes both ways though doesn't it. Could he have a massive mandate on his vanilla manifesto and feel no need to change anything? Or could he use that 1997 style to make big changes?

I do know, whatever happens we cannot have another Tory government.

@StrangeNoises @deepblue1990 @fencoul @OliverNoble

EPK Jan 24, 2023

I think if Starmer got into power it would be indistinguishable from the pre 2016 Tories under Cameron. That’s how far the middle ground has shifted.

@EPK @StrangeNoises @fencoul @OliverNoble as much as that sounds absolutely shite, I'd take that in a heart beat over what we've got now.

@deepblue1990 @EPK @fencoul @OliverNoble partly why most of my anger is actually about the refusal to do #PR - because that's basically outright saying "... and then we'll let the tories back in"

@StrangeNoises @EPK @fencoul @OliverNoble chicken and egg isn't it. Politicians of either ilk seem unable to do what's best for the country when it doesn't benefit them.. it's why I'm so "PR or death" about it because I'm done being emotionally invested in a change, when it'll get unwound again when wind changes direction 4 years later.

@deepblue1990 @EPK @fencoul @OliverNoble even that makes it sound even-handed, but actually FPTP means the tories are in power here *most of the time*. Labour's opposition to #PR is about preserving their *occasional* chances to take advantage of it, vs. probably being in a coalition of progressive parties *most of the time*.

it's infuriating. (Doubly so now that most actual labour members seem to agree)

🇳𝗮ꜟ𝖼𝘩 Jan 24, 2023

@StrangeNoises @deepblue1990 @EPK @fencoul @OliverNoble It's the same "rule over the ashes" mentality the Tories have. It's why everything is on fire.

Oli Jan 24, 2023

@StrangeNoises @deepblue1990 @EPK @fencoul that may well be the reason
Could also be that currently Starmers labour feel free to become as rightwing as they like while feeling entitled to hoover up all the votes to their left
" at least we arent the tories....GTTO etc"

If a vote for a socialist party actually counted under a PR system, people to the left wouldnt have to "hold their noses" and vote labour

Oli Jan 24, 2023

@StrangeNoises @deepblue1990 @EPK @fencoul And given Starmer is "demonstrably not a socialist" (haldane society of socialist lawyers), he is probanly very happy yo preserve the status quo and disenfranchise people on the left

@OliverNoble @StrangeNoises @EPK @fencoul I wholeheartedly agree with you I just see the absolute, immediate, catastrophic emergency to be literally anyone else except for the Tories. There has to be a change of scenery as a fundamental basis of literally anything changing.

At the moment, any vote for anything other than Labour is a vote for the Tories. They count on the left splintering. The only hope, is that Farage comes in and splits the vote on the right - that would be delicious.

@deepblue1990 @OliverNoble @EPK @fencoul with the proviso that you should please vote tactically for the best-placed anti-tory candidate on the ticket in your constituency.

@StrangeNoises @OliverNoble @EPK @fencoul of course :) blanket recommendation but that's always the case. Sometimes that's LD too, or others.

@OliverNoble @deepblue1990 @EPK @fencoul ultimately PR allows Labour - and the Conservatives - to split into their several constituent "natural" parties. separately, and in honest coalition with each other and others, they'd probably do better for their causes. but they lose the ego-boost of being one of the two "big" and "proper" parties.

@StrangeNoises @OliverNoble @EPK @fencoul and I'm all for that, after all that's what democracy is isn't it - warts and all. At least that would mean there would be some compromise, instead of constant ideologues.. we're so short term thinking as a country. Energy crisis was mostly avoidable by doing nuclear and heavy investment in green energy and insulation etc.

@StrangeNoises @OliverNoble @deepblue1990 @EPK

Fen C Jan 24, 2023

👆 ✔ @StrangeNoises

Have you seen

https://bit.ly/3IjOaNW?

A Mythical PR Party? - A guest post by Fen C, @fencoul (Twitter). - Progressive Pulse

Introduction What happened to the United Kingdom? The answer is “a lot”, and not much of it very good. What can be done to get the SS United Kingdom back on an even keel? Here’s an idea: opposition parties collaborating. “Hasn’t that already failed?” I hear you ask. “If at first, you don’t su ...

@StrangeNoises @fencoul @EPK @OliverNoble PR is fundamentally essential to the future of our democracy, I don't see us as a democratic country until it's done. Constant swings between more and more extreme polarized parties is *not* it.

It's not what they want, but that's the point - it's not about them and never was.

I really hate this country at the moment, the sooner everything at least comes back to the center, fund our public services and re-join the SM.. the better.

@deepblue1990 @fencoul @EPK @OliverNoble and if you put PR in your manifesto and *win*... you don't need a referendum to actually do it. because this country is proven to not have the political maturity to handle a referendum.

@StrangeNoises @fencoul @EPK @OliverNoble Just doing that, with the MSM destroying them... and the Tory's beating them with a giant stick. Starmer's so scared of being controversial