AhmedJan 23, 2023
recursive 🏳️‍🌈
Really hate this idea of video chat software faking eye contact. Not because of presenting something that doesn't reflect reality, but because its reifying a neurotypical model of what is right and good in how humans present themselves
Jan 22, 2023 at 9:36pmWeb
Show threadrecursive 🏳️‍🌈Jan 22, 2023

I actually enjoy making eye contact with people, even though it's difficult sometimes. There's all kinds of subtle feelings from the power and emotions of it. I'm not sure if it's difficult for the usual autistic reasons or not, mostly I always felt that I perceived people's emotions much too vividly with eye contact, so it sometimes felt dangerous.

But that makes choosing it, and deliberating interacting with another person even more fun

Show threadHugo Slabbert ⚠️Jan 23, 2023

@recursive is there room for this kind of thing to be double opt-in?
E.g.
User A would usually prefer to make eye contact with others when they're speaking, so they opt to have the software perform auto-adjustments to attempt to create eye contact.
User B prefers not to receive eye contact, so elects to not have eye contact directed at them.
As user B signalled they do not wish to receive eye contact, no eye target adjustment is done for user B's view.
Basically an AND of the settings, respecting A's intention but ultimately providing the recipient the control to not accept.
If user B does not wish to create eye contact (or, more specifically, not to have software simulate eye contact on their behalf) then the focus/target of their eyes (what they present to others) will not be adjusted regardless of the preferences of the remote participant(s).

I guess this could get complicated in multi-party video chats, though possibly could still be feasible if the eye tracking adjustment is performed receiver-side rather than sender-side?

Would something like this potentially respect the intentions of all parties, but still honour if consent is not provided by either party?

Show thread2xfoJan 23, 2023
@hugo @recursive
I've seen a lot of jokes recently about tech bro CEOs not grokking consent..
I think your scheme works well and respects user consent as long as it is opt-in on both ends.
Show threadKiran BabuJan 23, 2023
@hugo @recursive
Double opt-in sounds like a nice start. I will admit that I haven't thought about this as much (I'm honestly still getting used to video calls with my video actually on). But having something like this turned on with no indication and no options to manage consent feels like so much more else about several tech industry choices - little thought given to any one but "normal" users.
Show threadAsh RoseJan 23, 2023
@hugo @recursive I really like this, and I think this kind of two-way-consent mentality could be useful in a lot of software besides just video chat.
Show thread*((char *)NULL) = '\0';Jan 23, 2023

@recursive I often have to force myself to make eye contact and sometimes I find it really really hard... But I absolutely hate the idea of software doing it for me.

It is communication. Don't put words in my mouth, or eyes!

Show threadPete WrightJan 23, 2023
@recursive %100 agree with you. for me, making eye contact can feel like getting hit in the face with a firehose of emotional data, and then i can't focus on what peeps are actually trying to say which seems kinda disrespectful.

what really bothers me is when i take a step back and realize people in tech think *these* are the types of issues we should be using our technical super powers for, rather than trying to address the tidal wave of existential threats coming right at us.
Show threadPär BjörklundJan 23, 2023
@recursive I have some trouble making eye contact but this is so much worse. Seeing someone stare into a camera that way is creepy and unnatural. I don't want someone staring at me
Show threadFrancis 🇾🇪 🏳️‍🌈 🏳️‍⚧️Jan 23, 2023
@recursive I don’t think it’s only neurotypical. It’s cultural. Some places looking people in the eye is considered rude.
Show threadValerie RoneyFeb 4, 2023

@recursive This is really well articulated, thank you.

I agree eye contact is intense and it is nice to be able to up or down the volume as needed.

I know my ability to manage eye contact is really dependent on my energy. I remember watching a video of a fella working on his bonsai (something to comfort my fried brain) and he turned to the camera and leaned in and I was AAAARGGG! TOO MUCH FACE.

But you put it all more elegantly than that.

Show threadLes OrchardJan 22, 2023
@recursive YES
Show threadJonathan GerhardsonJan 22, 2023
@recursive normalize stumbling through 3-11 tabs of reference material on second monitor to left of camera
Show threadsolientJan 22, 2023
@highvizghilliesuit @recursive my thing is wandering around the apartment until I find the most flattering lighting.
Show threadJonathan GerhardsonJan 22, 2023
@solient @recursive my solution here is I only take interior design advice from Ralph Ellison
Show threaddraNgNonJan 23, 2023

@highvizghilliesuit @recursive i put it to the right or the camera, and look at the camera a lot.

...anyone with a bluetooth headset is going to have audio lag video and that actually makes me vaguely motion sick.

Show threadfen Jan 22, 2023

@recursive and also, like, maybe we don’t need to make digital remote communication more like being in person. No matter the iteration it never feels right. No matter the iteration, we’re still not in the same place having a fully shared experience, each of us has a second,l context the other only gets a window into.

Maybe it’s ok that it feels that way too?

Show threadsolientJan 22, 2023
@crayzeigh @recursive I’m fine with voice, but the insistence on everything going video brings few benefits, all of them in personal communication. Group/corporate benefits from screen sharing but could be a screensaver (remember those?) the rest of the time and it would probably improve the experience.
Show threadrecursive 🏳️‍🌈Jan 22, 2023
@solient @crayzeigh I happen to enjoy being visible in video chat, but I mostly have no patience for meetings where I'm not an active participant. The times I've wanted to be not seen are the times I'd be obviously bored. Now my gaze probably goes all over the place anyway
Show threadTessJan 22, 2023
@recursive @solient @crayzeigh I know mine does, because I lost all masking ability over the past few years apparently and welp
Show threadfen Jan 22, 2023
@recursive @solient same, mostly. For the most part I like seeing and being seen on calls with folks, especially in smaller groups. But I’m ok with the regular eye contact or lack and with non-video participation? It’s probably ok that people look all over the place and we normalize that? Or that sometimes people just don’t need to be on camera for dozens of reasons that aren’t anyone’s business
Show threadSofia ☭🇧🇷☭Jan 23, 2023
@solient @crayzeigh @recursive I like video because seeing people's lips makes it easier to understand what they're saying and seeing people's expressions lets me know if they're getting what I'm saying. I used to teach ESL over video--teaching over audio only would be basically impossible. But yeah I don't care about eye contact and that is an extremely weird/creepy feature to add
Show threadnicki xaphania mouse 🐁Jan 23, 2023
@crayzeigh @recursive eye contact in video calls doesn't even make sense. if you're looking at the speaker, you're not looking directly into the camera and vice versa. they're trying to simulate something that doesn't even exist in the first place
Show threadfen Jan 23, 2023
@xaphania @recursive I mean it _can_ exist (I know folks with a teleprompter setup that can mimic this exactly by putting zoom on the prompter screen for instance) but it’s unusual. My bigger concern is with the behavioral expectations it’s setting that are distinctly taking the needs and behaviors of ND folks and othering them. It’s assuming that everyone wants and should make eye contact during video calls and I’d argue neither is true.
Show threadfen Jan 23, 2023

@xaphania @recursive it’s kind of why I’m less weirded out by it on face time too, I think?

FaceTime is a little thing in my hand. When I look at the screen I’m intending to look at the person on the other end so it’s ok if it does that.

That’s not necessarily the case on a big computer screen. I might want to look at the speaker, I might want to be looking at some document… idk, it feels weird and unsettling in a way that tweaking FT doesn’t.

Show threadErin Beatrix Jan 22, 2023
@recursive I got reply guy'd commenting on why it's bad on a PCGamer article and remembered why I will never intentionally or willingly speak to a neurotypical ever again 👍
Show threadClaire has left the buildingJan 22, 2023
@recursive tbh it’s not so much intended to change gaze to match when intentionally looking a different direction, not sure it actually does since i haven’t tried it, and if it correctly changed the video to indicate what you were actually looking at in the virtual space of the other participant i would be fine with it
Show threadClaire has left the buildingJan 22, 2023
@recursive tbh it should be processing turned on on the receiving side to accomodate that person’s preferences as well, as strange as that sounds at first
Show threadClaire has left the buildingJan 22, 2023
@recursive personally I have no problem with seeing people on video looking off slightly to another direction but I can imagine some folks having issues. unfortunately these are also folks who probably wouldn’t go near an accessibility feature because they feel like they are “normal” and don’t need it.
Show threadrecursive 🏳️‍🌈Jan 22, 2023
@clairely_inexplicable omg, i'm so tired of people's internalized ableism like that, trying to get, especially older people, to try out accessibility features is so hard... i've been using some accessibility features for a decade despite nominally being non-disabled, there's so many nice features
Show threadClaire has left the buildingJan 22, 2023
@recursive besides always turning on Zoom the "show higher contrast" option for macOS makes the desktop feel like retro Mac OS in a very satisfying way
Show threadlunchyJan 23, 2023
@recursive bruhhh what fucking business side handler decided to make that a feature?
Show threaddawnfryJan 23, 2023

@recursive
My terrible rural internet crashes when more than one person is on video chat. So making people show video at all is another way to other and to some degree punish people who can’t afford or can’t get high speed internet in their area. On top of pushing ablest assumptions about how people are “supposed to” react and behave.

We need to normalize only the speaker/presenter or their materials being on camera. Not enforced viewing of people (and their living spaces) on the screen.

Show threadDavid J. AtkinsonJan 23, 2023
@recursive Video software that fakes eye contact will backfire. I am familiar with studies in #human-robot interaction #HRI that looked specifically at eye contact, gaze direction and so forth. There are very narrow quantifiable parameters for what people feel is natural and engaging. Looking away too frequently or for too long is interpreted as lack of interest. Lock gaze for too long and people think you are crazy and dangerous. Non-verbal communication is very rich and important!
Show threadEl Jefe "" Jan 23, 2023
@recursive what product is introducing this?
Show threadrecursive 🏳️‍🌈Jan 23, 2023
@eljefedsecurit https://hackers.town/@lmorchard/109734080290902810
Les Orchard (@[email protected])

Nvidia Broadcast's eye contact feature strikes me as something that only someone with autism and/or ADHD hyperfocus could have created, but they did it as a horror thing and the rest of the team was like "oh that's actually quite pleasant let's ship it" :ohno: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRpbKe8q/

hackers.town
Show threadDanielJan 23, 2023
@eljefedsecurit @recursive I understand that FaceTime has had an "Eye Contact" setting for around a year now, so not necessarily new
Show threadKarlJan 23, 2023
@recursive it is bizarre. iOS has done it for a few iterations
Show threadsecurityskeptic  Jan 23, 2023
@recursive Is the point to deceive others in the chat? Seems really disingenuous at best. Apologies if I misunderstand.
Show threadJames TryandJan 23, 2023
@recursive too much eyecontact is weird and creepy even for the neurotypical.
Show threadGlyphJan 23, 2023
@recursive @gvwilson is there software where it’s not optional? Apple’s implementation has a relatively easy-to-find check box to turn it off. Neurotypicals *are* looking at each others’ eyes most of the time, and the correction is to synthetically remove an illusion introduced by the position of the camera, not to mandate eye contact. It’s also a subtle correction which will generally not occur if you’re not already looking at the spot on the screen where your interlocutor’s eyes appear.
Show threadSamJan 23, 2023
@glyph @recursive @gvwilson
Seconded. It would be weird to make people who aren't making eye contact appear to make eye contact, but when I do want to make eye contact it would be nice if people on the other end noticed.
Show threadHelle, Queen of Dissociation Jan 23, 2023
@glyph @recursive @gvwilson so I can turn it off on other people's incoming streams.... No that is not how this is done it is done at the sending side. So I wish it was just a no, don't use these filters.
Show threadnebulosJan 23, 2023
@recursive well that sounds terrifying. the odds that that comes across as uncanny sounds like 100%
Show threadMaggieLJan 23, 2023

@recursive
Human eyes have specifically evolved to make the direction of gaze readable from a distance.

There's a reason for that.

Show threadFaith MJan 23, 2023
@recursive i also felt the same way. it feels so unnatural, why do we have to force eye contact when not looking at the monitor? although i see a good use in this when reading a prompter
Show threadSamJan 23, 2023

@faithm @recursive I believe the intent is more to assist with eye contact when you are looking at the monitor (i.e. at the other person's eyes, which aren't being displayed on your webcam).

I haven't tried it, but I would hope that if I look away from the video conference it doesn't unnaturally keep me staring at everyone. (If it does, that should be fixed 👀)

Show threadGhryswaldJan 23, 2023

@recursive
I don’t like the idea of software faking it, and people shouldn’t be pressured to use any of them. I also have a feeling the software solutions vs hardware solutions are going to go all Uncanny Valley on us and make things weird.

However, some solutions were developed because caregivers doing remote work during COVID were being given feedback that the people they were interacting with felt they weren’t the priority during the video call.

Show threadJordanJan 23, 2023
@recursive the one thing I like about the concept is looking at a person on your screen is impossible to make eye contact. Either you actually look at them, but not the camera, so it makes it look like you’re looking down. Or you can “make eye contact” by looking at the camera but you can’t actually see them. My 2c 🤷🏻
Show threadLynn GrantJan 23, 2023

@recursive Agreed. Here is what I just said about it on LinkedIn:
“When I read about this, I was so annoyed that I almost threw my phone on the floor and yelled ‘Dagnabit, in today’s world, where political groups are trying to convince people that anything they don’t like is “fake news”, we have deep-fake non-consensual porn, we have, ChatGPT writing essays, we have GitHub co-pilot writing code that may or may not work, do we have to go out of our way to find more things to fake up so our world can be less believable?’”

“It’s going to be really weird when you are talking to someone who has nystagmus, and suddenly his eyes are perfectly steady. (It will be like when my friend in junior high school, who had severe acne, had a portrait taken and they airbrushed out all the acne. It was a nice photo, but we weren’t sure who it was.)”

I should have mentioned non-NT eye response, since I struggled with that for a long time. (I probably didn’t stop, I just stopped struggling.)

Show threadcraquemattic 🏳️‍🌈Jan 23, 2023
@recursive @kendraleonard LOL what?! No. This shall not pass. Faking communication signals is the worst idea I have ever heard.
Show threadLime Green GnomeJan 23, 2023

@recursive
Not just neurotypical either. Demand (or not) for eye contact can vary greatly by location too.

In non-human animals, direct gaze is the hallmark of a predator & is a threat display in most mammals.
The neurodiverse are in the majority here.

(edit: realised I could've put that sentiment better)

Show threadAdreanaLangstonJan 23, 2023
@recursive The chat is made to trick human brains into thinking they are having a human to human experience. 15 -20 % of the population is neurodivergent. That means 80% of the time using eye contact is a right and proper way to trick the human brain: https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-022-03352-6
Social synchronization of brain activity increases during eye-contact - Communications Biology

Friends making eye-contact have higher inter-brain synchronization than strangers. Eye-contact affects neural synchronization between brains more than within a brain, highlighting that eye-contact is an inherently social signal.

Nature
Show threadauthor_is_ShrikeTron🔠💉x5Jan 23, 2023
@recursive It's also a passive - aggressive way to resist insecure bosses penalizing employees for not giving subjectively enough "attention".
Show threadHoldMyTypeJan 23, 2023
@recursive
Never thought of this,but when I do , it's a boon for people like me
Show threadBobbyJan 23, 2023
@recursive And a Western/American model as well. There are tons of cultures where direct eye contact is read as aggression.
Show threadSylvJan 23, 2023
@recursive I don't even try to look at the camera in video calls, at best I'm looking at the screen the camera is above or bellow, sometime to other people, often just myself because it help focusing. If it's something complicated I have to say however don't even look at the screen
Show threadsueAdynamoJan 23, 2023
@recursive i feel it’s been developed to combat eye tracking software. So, rather than keeping up appearances, it’s more a defense against biometric surveillance. This becomes more important when you are in public spaces rather than your boss’s zoom meeting.
Show threadTwitter RefugeeJan 23, 2023
@recursive
Checkout ChatGPT
It chills me to the bone.
Show threadElfbiterJan 23, 2023
@recursive Making eye contact is not universally followed practice. It may signal honesty in some parts of the West but elsewhere it is, for example, signal of challenge and aggression. Staring Japanese into eyes may be seen as challenge (unless said Japanese understands there is a difference). Not all Western habits are "universal".
Show threadhapbtJan 23, 2023
@recursive true but i've been making eye contact during conversations i'm completely disinterested in for decades so i'm ready