Mastodawn

Tom Williams Jan 5, 2023

France is mandating clean air in the classrooms, requiring CO2 levels of 800 ppm. I hope this is rolled out in other countries. Apart from lowering #covid risks in the classroom, it will also address other respiratory issues. #CleanAir #COVID #SafeSchools

Denys Séguret Jan 3, 2023

Unfortunately, I don't think that French texts contain more than recommendations which are not applied because public schools have no means.
My wife, a teacher, measures levels above 800 ppm in each of her courses.

Wiesendonk Jan 3, 2023

@Lylamehta it certainly will.
But for 800 ppm they need technical ventilation at least during the winter and the summer heat. Is France actually going to install the necessary air conditioning systems?
Do you know how they want to address this issue?

Lyla Mehta Jan 4, 2023

@wiesendonk sorry I don’t know anything more & replies to my post from those in France suggest that not much has been done as yet

Doug Bostrom Jan 3, 2023

I'm involved with a project leading us to install CO2 instrumentation in the crew spaces of some sample boats.

When the weather is cold and ventilation is reduced, concentration can quickly reach 4,500ppm and stay there for hours, with higher excursions.

Meanwhile the research on cognitive effects remains hazy but it's notable that the ISS started with US Navy levels and has steadily reduced, now limited at ~2kppm more by technical considerations as opposed to "don't need to."

Doug Bostrom Jan 3, 2023

"Hazy," but research as well of late better refined and with a general trend toward "this does have cognitive effects, non-obvious." Such as indications of lassitude even while no strong problem-solving deficits were observed, which IIRC was a key driver to reduce the concentration on ISS.

(background for folks not as close to the topic, not mansplaining to Dr. Mehta!)

Justathought Jan 3, 2023

@Lylamehta
Yes please! (Called in today due to colleague having Covid-19 again)

Shield Maiden Jan 3, 2023

@Lylamehta Not to mention that in a competitive future, France's children will be fitter and less disabled than their counterparts in countries where these measures are not being taken (see UK).

Patienceltd Jan 3, 2023

Quite some time ago, as a result of the last energy crunch in the 1970's, there was a spike in "sick building syndrome" complaints. Headaches, sore throats, wheezing, and so on. After maximizing insulation and sealing against drafts, a typical office building in the 1980's might have had less than one fresh air exchange every four hours.

/1

Patienceltd Jan 3, 2023

It turns out that indoor CO2 concentration is a decent proxy for all the volatile organic chemicals (VOCs) emitted by building materials, cooking, and other activities. There have been building code changes and improvements (mostly thermal exchangers for recapturing heat/chill from exhaust air). But ventilation still isn't adequate by historical standards. This is especially concerning given increasing use of artificial furnishing and finishing materials with VOC emissions.
/2

Patienceltd Jan 4, 2023

In the U.S., the OSHA regulatory limit for personal CO2 exposure is 5,000 ppm. The vintners I've worked with set room alarm limits at 2,000 ppm as a matter of comfort, to avoid headaches, increased respiratory rate, and diminished work capacity. [Yes, CO2 generation is a hazard in most commercial fermentation operations.]

Jana Lynne Sanchez Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta @crosscutanne fyi

Anne Miller Jan 4, 2023

@janasanchez @Lylamehta Interesting. Reduced CO2 should improve cognition, not necessarily SARS-CoV2

@crosscutanne @janasanchez @Lylamehta it's being used as a proxy for how often fresh air is being brought in.

It's a good proxy for ventilation, but doesn't account for things like HEPA filtration (which wouldn't reduce CO2 while reducing virus levels).

Or, I guess, CO2 scrubbers on the space station (but they have HEPA filtration there also).

Anne Miller Jan 4, 2023

@apukwa @janasanchez @Lylamehta yes understand that CO2 is a proxy. It is a hard metric for the avg consumer to understand as you can have high C02 but good air quality if enough air filtration (CADR).

Rosie🌻Healthy Air Evangelist🌻Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta @cleanersharedair

Countries are lining up to usher in a new era of cleaner indoor air.

Belgium requires public displays of CO2 monitors

The US demands that federally funded buildings clean air through MERV 13 filters.

And now news that France is protecting school children. 😊

Everyone can add a #CorsiRosenthalBox to their home, office or classroom.

As @Jimrosenthal4 says, “We are not helpless.”

David in Setouchi Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta From what I hear from France, that's a nice graph, but that's not what's happening in classrooms where nothing has changed since before the pandemic.

Gayathri K Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta was just trying to figure out how to get local school districts (the ones my nibblings attend) to do the same.

Mickaël Montessinos Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta Please note that the French education ministry has a history of passing measures without consulting with the workers, and without funding their implementation.
This might look great, but I doubt it will actually happen in every classroom.

@Lylamehta #Funfact: Weren't #schools explicity exempted from #LabourProtection laws and #MinorEmploymentRegulations, #classrooms would've been illegal in #Germany for decades...

Alex Weatherall Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta it will also improve cognitive function.

@Alby wrote about this before COVID was even a thing https://schoolsweek.co.uk/school-hopes-fresh-air-will-help-clear-exam-minds/

School hopes fresh air will help clear exam minds

A Surrey school plans to keep its windows open during exams after a physics teacher showed carbon dioxide levels rocketed

Schools Week

James_Pond Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta That's Great, and then when they see the mechanical and electrical costs of putting things right after the assessment, they won't bother doing anything about it. I look after many educational buildings post construction where modifications have meant little to no ventilation in rooms.

James_Pond Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta The cost effective option if the rooms have outside walls is to place Heat Recovery Units into the the ceiling, to provide fresh air. These are around 10K per unit per install on a retrofit.

They can be ducted into multiple rooms, that said, they rarely have the ability to control more than one space at once. S if you have a class which has 30 people in and one with 2. Its tricky.

Melinda Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta
I do hope France's classroom CO2 reduction measures are swiftly adopted, but I doubt the UK will follow suit. Here children and teaching staff seem to be the last on the list regarding implementation of preventative measures. Some parents have even bought air filters for classrooms themselves. Why the UK government cares so little for the country's children I do not know. Sunak wants them to study maths until they are 18, this might not be so easy if they have long covid.

JEG Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta I hope this is rolled out in France...

Robert Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta That so good to hear - happy to see such progress on clean air 🙏

A nice thread on reasons, details, and effects of clean air can be found here (unfortunately German only): https://twitter.com/leseerlaubnis/status/1608508472257286146

LesenUndTeilen© on Twitter

“Die Luftqualität in deutschen Innenräumen ist eine Katastrophe (ich weiß wovon ich spreche, ich messe sie in vielen Gebäuden seit über 17 Jahren und lehre dazu). 🧵 Pettenkofer hat vor über 150 Jahren die Grenze für hygienische Luft bei 1000 ppm CO2 angesetzt.”

Twitter

Iris Volk Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta @[email protected] 👏 Time for EU regulation!

Hans-Cees Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta
Heres a nice way to monitor that per classroom

Here people making a cheap ikea co2 sensor connected to #iot
https://community.home-assistant.io/t/ikea-vindriktning-air-quality-sensor/324599/14

And the ikea sensor here
#airquality
https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/vindriktning-air-quality-sensor-60515911/

There's really no obstacle to really monitor this well and direct in the classroom

IKEA Vindriktning Air Quality Sensor

If any of you have missed IKEA has a “new” product called Vindriktning. It is a 2.5 PM air quality sensor (PM1006) with a color LED on the front to indicate the air quality with green, amber and red colors. By default the device is not a smart or connected device but thanks to some clever people it is a perfect base for a DIY project. First of all @Hypfer published his esp8266 code base and instruction how to connect and set up the device with an esp8266 and MQTT. Then @Habbie took it fur...

Home Assistant Community

Rosemarie and Owen Kelly Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta it’s happening in Scotland- certainly in some authorities!

KIAKAHA Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta it'll never happen under UKIPTories

Lyla Mehta Jan 4, 2023

@KIAKAHA Agree!

peter Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta worked in indoor CO2 monitoring pre-covid and it has benefits even without disease risks because people tend to start to get sleepy at around 1000ppm

DJ-Bauer Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta Damn, and 800ppm is quite an ambitious threshold. Hats off.
I had done a couple CO2 mesuares for a school project and I've seen values up to 3600ppm once in a classroom during a heatwave

Norwegian Wood Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta
Seems that CO2 monitors should be in every classroom.

Fourrure Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta well, nothing is done here. I mean, i'm french and there's 0 money for clean air in schools, administrations etc...
Nobody cares.

Kzi Jan 4, 2023

@Lylamehta I call BS on that one. They haven't been able to provide masks to most teachers at all (forget ffp2), they did not give them access to early shot despite classes being open, few have even seen a single air purifier in their school. They are great at announcements and creating toll-free phone number, nothing else

Wob0 Jan 5, 2023

@Lylamehta Was looking forward to something like this regulation for years.

Resuna Jan 5, 2023

@Lylamehta 800 ppm is already pretty high!

Olivier Roux (moose)Jan 5, 2023

@Lylamehta they’re mandating it, but with no plan on how schools are actually going to implement it, no funding etc. It’s basically just PR, sadly.

Popolon 🇵🇸🇳🇨☮️🌳🎋 ᠫᠣᠫᠣᠯᠣᠨ🐎抱抱龙🐉 ⏚φ Jan 5, 2023

@Lylamehta But about 0 budget is given to public schools, and this is already a 4 years old struggle between teaching structures/teachers and government. This is just another vapor thing without any real effect from Ceaucescu like government.

💉💉💉💉 Sean Houlihane 🕷️🔶Jan 6, 2023

@Lylamehta In (unrelated) news, France also seems to have excess death numbers under control, unlike other places.

ghosthermione Jan 21, 2023

@Lylamehta sadly nothing here says they can't just open windows before the reading. I've worked in a place (in ireland) where they just put CO2 detectors in each room and it was on us to open the windows when it turned orange, whatever the temperature and weather.

Ezme Jan 27, 2023

@Lylamehta Thanks for posting this. Geez, I wish we had this in the so called states. All covid19 mitigations have been thrown out the window. My daughter has only been attending remote learning since Covid-19 began, but I will share this with her school. Even though we are extremely isolated, we are still frequently ill. My health and my child’s health has substantially lessened since catching covid19.

Lyla Mehta Jan 27, 2023

@emilyfern I’m so sorry to hear about your child & your health problems. It’s terrible how #LongCovid & covid have been minimised all over. I hope #cleanair will be rolled out universally but that’s going to be a long wait I think