RobertoDec 24, 2022
Sheril Kirshenbaum

I see some folks asking for a quote style button on #Mastodon. Let’s not do that.

Quote tweeting on #Twitter incentivized snark, promoted outrage & rewarded cruelty. It brought out our worst by further gamifying interactions in a kind of race for 🔁 & ❤️ - which are delightfully less obvious here.

I love that Mastodon has a community feel & hope it stays that way.

Dec 24, 2022 at 3:49amMetatext
Show threadGuitarGirlDec 24, 2022
@Sheril ⬆️⬆️⬆️ What she said.
Show threadLadyTDec 24, 2022
@Sheril agree
Show threadHemant🕉️🌻Dec 24, 2022
@Sheril 💯
Show threadLord Caramac the Clueless, KSCDec 24, 2022
@Sheril I would prefer the Tumblr style thread where every time you reblog a post, you can add something underneath, and it just keeps growing with every reblog.
Show threadMarty 🇨🇦Dec 24, 2022
@LordCaramac @Sheril i like this idea
Show threadaarondleongDec 24, 2022
@Sheril it took a little to get used to it, but I like that might choices are “engage in conversation“ or “amplify.” A little less snark is always a good thing.
Show threadJeffDec 24, 2022

@Sheril I do think the way things work here, that gamification just won't be as effective. It is very difficult to go viral in the same way when there is no algorithm prioritizing high-engagement posts.

There are valid reasons to quote-boost and I often find myself limited by the lack of the option. I would love to be able to continue a conversation by referencing someone else's post. Currently the best I can do is cast it into the ether and I never hear anything back.

Show threadKelli Blue 📸Dec 24, 2022
@blueberrywerewolf @Sheril you could copy/paste a link to their toot into your reply 🤷🏼‍♀️
Show threadOutfrostDec 24, 2022
@kelliblue @blueberrywerewolf @Sheril That's just quote boosting but with extra steps, because now you have to copypaste the link into your instance and hope the search doesn't glitch, in order to follow that person for example
Show threadJeffDec 24, 2022

@kelliblue @Sheril You're not wrong but it's not quite the same thing. It's a passable workaround now but I think a quote-boost function would work better for this purpose.

I do fully understand the reluctance though. At the other place it is a large contributor to the trash fire. I just think the way things work here is fundamentally different enough to make it a useful tool.

Show threadMadhusudan Katti, he/himDec 25, 2022
@kelliblue @blueberrywerewolf @Sheril that’s how we did it for years on twitter too until they decided to make QT a built-in feature of the app.
Show threadBenj Soule🫂💙HumanityFirst🌅Dec 24, 2022
@blueberrywerewolf @Sheril I meant "Quote-Tooting" allows to form a more complete message. *Updated
Show threadAudrey AzuraDec 24, 2022

@blueberrywerewolf @Sheril I am not sure how it works on other instances, but here I have a lot more characters than on twitter (5000 instead of 280). So why not summarize the original, link to it so people can go there if they want more context, and then add your comment?

I think that is a good way to interact with the content, tbh, since it shows you have read and understood the original message and encourages people to go check the original content too. I think it promotes a way safer discourse.

The main problems are that the original may not receive a notification and/or the interested community may not see it.
For the first problem, it is still possible to mention the original author and I think that sends a notification? I'd need to check, but that solves the first problem.
I don't have a real solution for the second problem, but I am not sure it is one, tbh. As far as I understand, here, hashtags are more important than on Twitter. By using the correct hashtags in your message, then, you may not reach the community of the original in its entirety, but you will reach people that are interested in the subject. Which I think is a lot more important, in the end.

Show threadAteriathDec 24, 2022
@Sheril I mean, you can always link and post a screenshot to a post along with your reaction to it. It’s not like it can’t happen, you just have to be intentional. Maybe a little barrier to entry is a good thing.
Show threadBenj Soule🫂💙HumanityFirst🌅Dec 24, 2022
@Ateriath @Sheril possibly. but a hindrance.
Show threadSean MacツDec 24, 2022
@Sheril
I think there are valid reasons to share with context. And, without an algorithm, I dont see how *share with context* will be any different than *share without context*.
Ultimately, without the ability to share with context, I dont think many will stay here. I dont want to blast random posts to my followers without explaining why I find those posts meaningful to me. It's about connecting as humans, and creating meaning, not replicating data as if we are human algorithms.
Show threadjigbeanDec 24, 2022
@seanm4c @Sheril Connecting with humans is part of the reason there's no QT, I've understood. So, instead of (just) blasting something to your followers, you can reply to the OP, who will probably appreciate hearing your view. I like the suggestion to add your context to your reply and then boost your reply.
Show threadSean MacツDec 24, 2022

@jigbean @Sheril
I just dont think that is how humans work. When I find something exciting, I really want to share that to my friends on Mastodon with a comment as to why I find it meaningful. In other words, I want to start a conversation with my friends, and have them respond to me about it. Right now, just 'boosting' sends it along while removing me from the equation. The interaction is very hollow that way.

I do have a theory that Mastodon is for introverts. ;) I am an extrovert.

Show threadjigbeanDec 24, 2022
@seanm4c @Sheril But what about your interaction with the person who posted in the first place?
Interesting theory on introverts v extroverts. FWIW I'm very, very introverted.
Show threadSean MacツDec 24, 2022
@jigbean @Sheril
that is a really good question. So my take... I don't think the original post is as important as the relationship and interaction that you have with your own circle of friends. Like, when I see an article about a new scientific discovery, I dont necessarily want to talk to the person who wrote the article, because I dont know them. I want to discuss that article with my friends.
Show threadjigbeanDec 24, 2022
@seanm4c @Sheril Interesting. You see, that's why I think no QT-ing is better and, well, more social. If you use the reply with context + boost your reply method, you get the conversation with your friends, but you also let the OP know what you found in their post/work worth discussion. They may or may not want to discuss it with you but at the very least it's (a) nice to be thanked and (b) might give them (or you) a new direction to take their thoughts in.
Show threadKelli Blue 📸Dec 24, 2022
@seanm4c @Sheril you could copy/paste a link to the toot you’re replying to into your toot 🤷🏼‍♀️
Show threadSean MacツDec 24, 2022
@kelliblue @Sheril
yes, and that is just a few extra steps. I have tried that. But the fact that Mastodon doesnt show a preview of the link is also problematic. I tend to copy the headline, paste, copy the link, paste, add my comment, post. That is really cumbersome. I feel like social networks already solved these kinds of issues years ago, so it definitely feels like a step back in time.
Show threadKelli Blue 📸Dec 24, 2022
@seanm4c @Sheril I think it shows previews after the post gets a chance to propagate through the fediverse
Show threadSean MacツDec 24, 2022
@kelliblue @Sheril
maybe! I am def not an expert here yet, lol. 💛 And I love the decentralization here, along with the lack of algorithm. That is fantastic, and what Mastodon has going for it! I just dont think the ability to repost with context would ruin that.
Show threadSteveDec 24, 2022
@seanm4c @Sheril I do understand that. But lets also think of what experience the lack of quote tooting creates: it means that a user #toots something more personal, potentially. Anyway, as the userbase grows, there'll be more pressure to import big #socialmedia norms.
Show threadSean MacツDec 24, 2022
@lime_juice_cube @Sheril
yes, I agree 100% Steve! I do think those 'social media norms' are just the things that humans tend to want to do, you know? When you try to curtail human behavior with 'features', you get interesting results. So time will show what kind of community Mastodon builds with its unique experience!
Show threadSteveDec 24, 2022
@seanm4c @Sheril It is interesting. Culture (a collection of ideas and behaviours) is flexible and malleable, and humans create all kinds of different cultures. Big #socialmedia tends to value growth, data capture, profiteering, and algorithmic sorting to optimise growth and engagement. #mastodon culture was largely developed by the queer community, who wanted to de-amplify toxicity. So, #mastodon has a different #culture - not right or wrong.
Show threadSean MacツDec 24, 2022
@lime_juice_cube @Sheril
yes, I have been told this. I will say that I am also 'queer' (although I am older, so I prefer the label of 'gay') and I dont feel like I fit in here, and have already been made to feel unwelcome repeatedly. So again, this is an interesting experiment.... ...
Show threadSteveDec 24, 2022
@seanm4c @Sheril That's definitely an interesting POV actually. As the userbase grows, I have no doubt any founding culture, queer or otherwise, will become diluted. Still, the #fediverse is diverse, and easy enough to find an instance that has a different set of values.
Show threadSean MacツDec 24, 2022
@lime_juice_cube @Sheril
yes, and that brings me back to my original point (that you probably can't see because this has been a multi-threaded conversation tonight, lol) -- that the diverse, decentralized, and non-algorithmic nature of Mastodon is what makes it so amazing... and I dont think re-posting with context would ruin that dynamic.
Show threadSteveDec 24, 2022
@seanm4c @Sheril It would certainly be interesting to see. Whatever happens, #mastodon culture has already changed. Change cannot be resisted.
Show threadCypherDec 24, 2022
@seanm4c @Sheril then just included the link in the post and ignore the boost function?
Show threadSean MacツDec 24, 2022
@cspcypher @Sheril
copy link, paste, copy headline (because Mastodon doesn't post with link preview, which is also a security thing that invites phishing), paste, add comment, worry about posting conventions so everyone understands what I am doing....
okey dokey!
Show threadCypherDec 24, 2022

@seanm4c @Sheril this toot here is really good because of xyz ... link

I don't see the issue?

Show threadSean MacツDec 24, 2022
@cspcypher @Sheril
yes, I totally agree. you are right.
❤️✌️
Show threadDave HoggDec 24, 2022

@Sheril There are certainly ways to abuse quote toots, but recommending things is a part of community life. If I read a book, and I think you should read it, I'm not going to silently hand it to you and walk away. I'm going to say "this is amazing - it might be the best book I've read in 2022."

Quote toots give us a way to explain why we are boosting something or to add context. As you said, there's no reason to do it to boost your engagement numbers anymore, which should cut down the abuse.

Show threadAnneDec 24, 2022
@Sheril Yes! Boost and comment is better than the old re-tweet.
Show threadJordan de SocalDec 24, 2022
@Sheril just want to point out that not only does this ignore the positive uses for QT, but also the additional moderation tools inherent to this platform. The result is a less functional UX and a cool story about why we can't have nice things
Show threadSudhirDec 24, 2022
@Sheril .Well said Sheril!!👍👏😊🌹🙏
Show threadDaniel LoxtonDec 24, 2022
@Sheril QTs are definitely used by big accounts to hammer and target people quite often. Lots of other small accounts (like me) primarily use them to amplify, add to, or introduce good stuff we want people to enjoy. (I generally screencap stuff I want to critique.)
It would be nice to have the contextualizing function without the abuse. An earlier commenter may have it right in suggesting the higher effort workaround of crafting a new post with screencap plus link?
Show threadmyrmepropagandistDec 24, 2022

@Daniel_Loxton Screen cap with a link is very rude to photographers and artists.

Who are often the people I want to QT the most, sometimes with some context for the image, others, using it as a jumping off point for a greater reflection.

QT lets people use images and give full credit. And it helps those images get more attention.

It's about collaboration. text+image=something new and more alive than either alone

Show threadDaniel LoxtonDec 24, 2022
@futurebird I hadn’t thought of that, though I’m an artist myself; I was thinking more of how we share people’s written tweets. But you’re right: on the bird site, I do often QT artists with introductory thoughts or compliments.
Show threadIggyDec 24, 2022
@futurebird @Daniel_Loxton My personal instance (this one), that I just spun up today, is a Misskey server, which has quote-posting. So does Akkoma. It's certainly not as simple as "have people who want quote-posting spin up their own Misskey servers", but it seems like getting the word out about them would be helpful.
Show threadCypherDec 24, 2022
@skroobler @futurebird @Daniel_Loxton this
Show threadmyrmepropagandistDec 24, 2022

@skroobler @Daniel_Loxton

Once some of the instances running misskey or hometown get a stable open server with reasonable mod rules I suspect a lot will end up there. And that may be how it goes.

Mastodon was the most presentable when this all went down. But it's a big fediverse.

Show threadIggyDec 24, 2022
@futurebird @Daniel_Loxton It's also the easiest to set up, because of the extensive documentation on basically every Linux variant and VPS hosting platform, and the massive community that can walk you through any stumbles, compared to other fediverse server software.
Show threadMartin RundkvistDec 24, 2022
@Daniel_Loxton @Sheril Many don't seem to understand or care that retweeting stuff you disagree with is also signal boosting. I retweet in order to give props.
Show threadJoey Van DeurzenDec 24, 2022
@Sheril To quote @thomasfuchs:
Show threadParanoid FactoidDec 24, 2022

@Sheril

I have to disagree. Quote tweets are really useful for posting a synopsis of someone else's thread. Let's not ignore a useful tool just because some people misuse it.

Show threadNancy M RuffDec 24, 2022
@Sheril Me, too.
Show threadOutfrostDec 24, 2022
@Sheril But as you point out, the equivalents of RT and likes exist here, yet they don't seem to be a problem. Likewise, boosting with comment can be accomplished without incentivising toxicity.
Show threadBenj Soule🫂💙HumanityFirst🌅Dec 24, 2022
@Sheril I wonder if it's the people or the tools such as *quote-tweeting* that spread these behaviors. I don't think anybody here wants to reproduce the atmosphere of Twitter. Promoting outrage is entirely different than promoting public discourse.
Show threadSusan BeebeDec 24, 2022
@Sheril agreed!!
Show threadKenobiDec 24, 2022
@Sheril quote tweets were a good way to talk about other behind their digital backs ;)
Show threadMary M. RedouteyDec 24, 2022
@Sheril I like the feel of things here too but changing this function could be beneficial for journalists, teachers, doctors, lawyers and others who would like to introduce a re-toot to prepare their readers for it.
It is especially useful when there is a lot of material and a few salient points might focus the reader prior to reading the toot especially if that toot contains an article. It does not have to be a negative thing. This is not be a conflictive stewpot like Twitter.
Show threadScot HackerDec 24, 2022

@Sheril I've only seen quoted posts used for good (context, with "my take") on Facebook and Twitter. I have not seen them used for bad purposes, so I'm very confused by this recurring take. Can someone show an example of how they could be used for bad purposes?

Regardless, ANY tech can be used for good or for bad. Can we not throw the baby out with the bathwater please? Most of us (I think!) miss them sorely.

Show threadCody KoniorDec 24, 2022
@Sheril That happened to me once. But then I used it to QT positive things tens of thousands of times and saw many more than even that.
I feel people are taking it way out of context.
Show threadMichael H WhitworthDec 24, 2022
@Sheril 100% agree
Show threadrholland_again-againDec 24, 2022

@Sheril I think you are on to something. Mastodon lacks snark, which can be some of the most entertaining content.

I get what you are saying in the same way a small town resident thinks of city dwellers. Keep the community uniform and limited.

I would prefer that all the editing and creation tools be made available. We can judge the results using the star and the rolling arrows tools.