Josh GrubbsDec 21, 2022
Gwen Snyder is uncivil

So I really enjoy this site but the decentralization true believer guys very much need to develop some chill, lol.

We all need to take a breath and remember that change takes time.

Decentralized services are great, but services need to be accessible and intuitive for popular adoption to take off.

Dec 20, 2022 at 3:02pmWeb
Show threadGwen Snyder is uncivilDec 20, 2022

If we want people to move away from centralized platforms (and we should), the way we do that isn't preaching the technical superiority and expecting that to win hearts and minds.

Folks on social media aren't looking for the best tech, they're looking for tech that helps them access community with a minimum of friction.

Show threadAlisonW β™ΏπŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆβ™ΎοΈDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder
cf Betamax v VHS. Simple wins over better.
Show threadAlan 🏴󠁧󠁒󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡ΊπŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆDec 20, 2022

@AlisonW @gwensnyder But tbh they were both under my control on the remote - and then along came dvd and bluray with unskippable features and other forced content.

Isn’t the more important argument dvd vs vhs rather then betamax vs vhs?

Show threadAlisonW β™ΏπŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆβ™ΎοΈDec 20, 2022
@alanfleming @gwensnyder
Obviously random access is better than serial access but that isn't a like for like comparison. And yes, I absolutely deplore unskippable contant (cf Youtube)
Show threadAlan 🏴󠁧󠁒󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡ΊπŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆDec 20, 2022
@AlisonW @gwensnyder The point I was trying to make was algorithmic content is provably bad now. I’m of the β€œmake people work for their chosen content!” view rather than the β€œlet’s build a better algorithm!” View. If that makes fewer people engage here? Fine with that. We’re not in an adbucks arms race.
Show threadAlisonW β™ΏπŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆβ™ΎοΈDec 20, 2022
@alanfleming @gwensnyder
I'm a bit mixed / open minded on the issue. I like the _option_ of following suggestions (as YouTube make) but not when I'm forced to act on them.
Show threadLord KelvinDec 21, 2022

@alanfleming @AlisonW @gwensnyder

Very much this.

I'm all for inclusivity - to a point. There are sorts of people who are provably bad. We do not NEED to include them in growth-at-any-cost.

Show threadAlan 🏴󠁧󠁒󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡ΊπŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆDec 21, 2022
@kelvin0mql @AlisonW @gwensnyder I’d go so far as to say the concept of growth here is irrelevant (except in one way, and fx: wanders off to send the owner of my instance some cash)
Show threadMatt McIrvinDec 20, 2022

@gwensnyder I think many Mastodon design decisions and cultural norms aimed at reducing "toxicity of discourse" are coming from a privileged place: someone wants to reproduce, say, the atmosphere of Usenet circa 1990, when not many people were there yet--but this was also a very white male techie little world with low stakes.

I say this even knowing that I personally prefer kind elevated civil conversation to bare-knuckle fights. But I'm also suspicious of my own motivations when I prefer it.

Show threadMatt McIrvinDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder (Also, I think a lot of "gee, it's so much calmer and kinder here" observations are just people seeing the effect of low population. People want livelier conversations and bigger scale but peace and quiet doesn't scale.)
Show threadMatthewDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder I agree. Most people don't care about that stuff - they just want something that works easily for them. That's not to say the techie stuff isn't really interesting - it is! But I don't think that's going to be the thing that attracts people to this place.
Show threadAlan 🏴󠁧󠁒󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡ΊπŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆDec 20, 2022
@picard @gwensnyder so what’s your solution?
Show threadMatthewDec 21, 2022

@alanfleming @gwensnyder Maybe focus on the value you receive as a result of these systems. Talk about the emotional benefit you find as a result of them being different, rather than the technical differences. Chances are, your communities will have similar values and find the same benefits.

An analogy might be the adoption of smart phones - most people don't care about how cool the screen or sensor tech are, but they do care that they can easily video chat with family around the world, etc.

Show threadErik SandrΓ©nDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder Very true. one of the things I mostly fear with mastodon is the risk of getting too heavy with only people related to tech.Hopefully time will prove me wrong :)
Show threadQuiltyDawnDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder it took me 3 weeks to even create an account because the whole "choose a server" was such a huge stumbling block. Even though I KNEW it didn't matter, you can follow people on other servers, you can change, etc. etc.--just making a choice was tough. And then I decided which one I'd join, and it was closed to new people. So another week delay before I finally just picked something.
Show threadmalcriada_lala_Dec 20, 2022

@QuiltyDawn @gwensnyder I agree. I think it would help if there was a front door to mastodon that guided you through the set up process with a short video. You could choose to take a little poll about your interests, what languages you can read, etc. And then a list of relevant servers could pop up, with their description and rules listed.

People have gotten used to a very flat internet and opening up the perspective of the general population is going to be so hard

Show threadQuiltyDawnDec 20, 2022
@Malcriada @gwensnyder maybe even a few onboarding servers that are meant to be temporary. Sort of a "start here, and then we'll help you figure out where you want to go".
Show threadGwen Snyder is uncivilDec 20, 2022
@QuiltyDawn @Malcriada this is SUCH a good idea. @BlackAzizAnansi what if we thought about something like this?
Show threadBach Club β™ͺDec 20, 2022
@Malcriada @QuiltyDawn @gwensnyder this is a bit like what you described (though not perfect): https://instances.social/
Mastodon instances

Show threadmalcriada_lala_Dec 20, 2022
@bachdotclub @QuiltyDawn @gwensnyder OOO, wasn't aware of this! I'm going to check it out later on. Thanks!
Show threadSasha Costanza-ChockDec 20, 2022
@Malcriada @QuiltyDawn @gwensnyder have you seen the instance wizard over here? https://instances.social/
Mastodon instances

Show threadQuiltyDawnDec 20, 2022

@schock @Malcriada @gwensnyder lol, yeah, I saw the wizard before I signed up.
"How big a server do you want?" I have no idea.

"Is nudity okay?" Uhhhh...

"What about advertising?" Me: close wizard and walk away for another 3 days.

I'm not a tech idiot, but that's a lot of questions to answer for something you know nothing about. It's much easier to figure some of that out once you are actually on.

Show threadmalcriada_lala_Dec 20, 2022
@QuiltyDawn @schock @gwensnyder yeah, and this is where a short intro video would help. Something that gives you the information you'll need later to understand why you are being asked those questions and whether you care or not. Empowering people with the info they need to know their preferred path to entry is what is needed. Some people will choose a big non-specific server for a while, others will want to use a wizard, whatever suits them.
Show threadSasha Costanza-ChockDec 20, 2022
@Malcriada @QuiltyDawn @gwensnyder makes sense! I love intro videos and also agree that a lot of people want to make no choices at the start and that should be FINE
Show threadAlan 🏴󠁧󠁒󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡ΊπŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆDec 20, 2022
@Malcriada @QuiltyDawn @gwensnyder And what happens when someone grabs control of that door? This is something that has happened often on the internet. From lessons learned ( one example: cddb / gracenote, there are many others) how would you suggest we make it not happen again?
Show threadKathryn TewsonDec 20, 2022
@QuiltyDawn Also, it does matter. I have friends who chose servers almost at random because they were told "it didn't matter" only to discover that they were on a problematic server . . . and many people blamed them for "not having done the research!" @gwensnyder
Show threadQuiltyDawnDec 20, 2022
@kathryntewson @gwensnyder Yeah, I think I know which server you are talking about. I almost joined that one because a few prominent people joined it. In the end I picked what I did because it was on the joinmastodon.org site and it was accepting new people right away. It looks like there are a lot more to choose from now than when I was looking (1st Twitter wave).
Show threadStabbyCutyouDec 20, 2022

@gwensnyder so few people deep in tech seem to realize that the tech itself is almost never the interesting part for the vast majority of users.

It's unfortunate to see smart people get so frustrated by it, but people-at-large simply don't care, they just want an easy solution to their immediate need.

"Poor" tech can do that just fine for a lot of things.

Show threadDwight Williams (πŸ’‰ x9)+πŸ˜·πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦Dec 20, 2022
@StabbyCutyou @gwensnyder Exactly this, yes.
Show threadStevoisiakDec 20, 2022

@StabbyCutyou @gwensnyder I almost didn't migrate to Mastodon because of how confusing the server picking process was. When they closed registrations for mastodon social, I almost gave up until I remembered I had an old account.

I have a few friends who tried to sign up here but fell off the signup process.

Show threadRob LandleyDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder if you notice the tech it's immature tech.
Show threadseadevDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder this is so important. We have to make problems relatable before people want to solve them.
Show threadRandom Damage 🌻Dec 20, 2022

@gwensnyder building community focused servers seems to be a major part of what needs to be done there.

Unfortunately the skills and resources to do that aren't evenly distributed

Show threadGwen Snyder is uncivilDec 20, 2022
@RandomDamage yeah, and it's a lot of labor that really should be funded to make it possible for people with fewer resources to participate. It's thorny
Show threadOndΕ™ej PokornΓ½Dec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder While I absolutely agree we should make the tech as accessible as possible, there are limits to how easy decentralized tech can get. Centralized will always be in advantage and win the "minimal friction" competition.
So some level of understanding about the dangers of autocracy in tech is also necessary.
Show threadBen CrowellDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder "...the way we do that isn't preaching the technical superiority and expecting that to win hearts and minds."
I wasn't aware that anyone *was* doing that.
I guess it just goes to show that on a healthy, free platform, you and I can have different groups of people we interact with, rather than having some celebrity's tweets force fed to us.
The motivations I've seen people give are: (1) you don't want to contribute to Elon Musk, and (2) you control what and who you see in your feed.
Show threadAdam ElmanDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder agreed wholeheartedly. Ultimately it has nothing to do with β€œtech superiority” in any case - it’s about whether the public square is controllable by a single entity (who could be, say, a crazy billionaire) or not. β€œNot” is better for democracy in the long term. But like you say - most people are just trying to find a solution that works in their busy lives. We need to make the Fediverse the lowest-friction alternative.
Show threadLucia Freitas Dec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder If we can imagine a way for people to easily find an instance, #mastodon will probably thrive...
Show threadAlan 🏴󠁧󠁒󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡ΊπŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder but that’s the β€œfeed me” argument. And no matter how you present that, it so far has proven to be a race to the bottom, content-wise. How would you make that different, here?
Show threadStephen CerrutiDec 20, 2022

@gwensnyder there exists a fundamental difference that must be overcome, "someone has to pay for it."

Yes, the friction must be reduced but we need to convince people to take ownership or take on the role of patron or customer. The current models hides that issue.

Because your posting history is not portable, some of the promise of federation is hollow. Instance owners still control significant IP that was created by others. We need better models for running instances.

Show thread1P1P1DDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder πŸ‘†πŸΎThankyouuuu. As a humble helpdesk jockey I stay tryna remind my dev-side friends/colleagues to remember the end-userπŸ™ŒπŸΎ
Show threadden lille Γ¦lling (+ elefant)Dec 21, 2022
@gwensnyder kind of along the same lines as why there are so few of my old communist mutuals who've moved over -- go where the people are, and right now that isn't mastodon
Show threadameliaDec 21, 2022
@gwensnyder which is why the joinmastodon.org layout sucks
Show threadTessa πŸ³οΈβ€βš§οΈDec 21, 2022
@gwensnyder I feel like people might care about "we will never sell your data or force you to watch ads." Centralized services will monetize the crap out of their users. That's the whole point of them.
Show threadLes LoreDec 21, 2022

@gwensnyder

funny for me

friction is what enables traction
without friction one has uncontrolled slides

I prefer traction
I prefer some control
friction helps me not crash

so I am okay with fediverse being a little more frictive

Show threadAlan TwigzDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder yeah I'm getting a little bit tired of all the dunking on people who bounce off mastodon due to the need to pick an instance, unclear moderation norms and practices, etc. Change is hard! Everyone conceives of their online life differently! Giving up a unified, user centered experience for a more self curated one is a real tradeoff that folks have to be sold on.
Show threadBlackgirlinmaineDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder yes, please!
Show threadHoward CohenDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder I agree 100%. The decentralization camp and the centralized services camp like to point out the failings of each other's side. But what matters to users is whether the service received is timely and fair. Lots of people, especially in marginalized communities, do not get fair service. Lots of entitled/privileged people get good service and don't see any problem. In my opinion, only transparency can balance the two sides, combined with people actually being fair to each other.
Show threadLong TruongDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder also 120% of the people who do this are guys (men).
Show threadGwen Snyder is uncivilDec 20, 2022
@lxtruong lol yeah the language was deliberate
Show threadPollikDec 20, 2022

@gwensnyder

True. It is a new concept for many.

One possible future pathway that appeals to me is the possibility that we end up hosting instances on our own (rented) server space, in a manner analagous to emails. That would give us more control of our own data.

Show threadLight Thief ProductionsDec 20, 2022

@gwensnyder I am assuming scare quotes around the word accessible here because fediverse culture seems to be very much about the type of accessibility that includes disability and neuro divergence, while simultaneously seeming to be completely unaware of accessibility as a class/culture/race/language problem.

A lot of "movements" and "innovative" things require learning an entire new vocabulary and sociology and if you don't have time or energy for that work you're excluded

Show threadfahruDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder thanks for saying things that I think a lot of people are afraid of saying (including me!!)
Show threadMichael PaulauskiDec 20, 2022

@gwensnyder What's funny about people arguing about the technical superiority of Mastodon is that things like identity federation are a solved problem in decentralized ecosystems!

Hell, it's the one thing that Blockchain would actually be good at here! You mint an identity token that's then recognized/ratified by federated servers!

No need to lift/shift all your data from server to server, it's all under the same unified identity!

Show threadTony TribbyDec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder Yeah, also any ways to eliminate the burden of decentralization on the users (like "to favorite this person's post you have to copy and past this link or else create an account in this server")
Show threadeviloatmeal, resident Death Stranding 2 apologist (arch, btw)Dec 20, 2022
@gwensnyder Sure. And most of us are pretty chill, just like any silent majority next to any vocal minority.

We're happy you're here. Glad you're enjoying your time here. But we didn't ask for anything to change. That's an idea you brought with you.
Show threadElliotDec 21, 2022
@gwensnyder enter Google and Apple in some kind of collab.
Show threadJay Dec 21, 2022
@gwensnyder Agreed, but at the same time, popular adoption isn't everyone's goal here either.
Show threadRumblestiltskinDec 21, 2022
@gwensnyder
Every new idea and technology has it's zealots and detractors. It is all a part of the conversation.
Show threadDavidDec 21, 2022
@gwensnyder I found these services accessible and intuitive from the start. Could you explain what you mean?