LenaBee
Charlotte HunterFree speech and hate speech are not the same thing. Pass it on.
Sirpushalot@kijekijikokwe hate speech is the antithesis of free speech
Ass dragon@kijekijikokwe no, hate speech is sadly a part of free speech, as is our ability to speak against it. Freedom means some people being shit
Jasmine 🏳️⚧️@assdragon @kijekijikokwe Nope. Germany has a free speech except hate speech law that is amazing. Hate speech inherently infringes on the freedom, including freedom of speech, of minoritized groups. There is no place for hate speech in a free civil society.
@womanontherun @assdragon I agree. Freedom means living in a society where at the very least people who are perpetuating shit can be safely labelled as such. We're not even close to that so I don't know what would happen after that. But this whole "hate speech will always be with us so ..." approach to "freedom" is always beyond sus to me.
@womanontherun @kijekijikokwe I appreciate you low key calling me racist. Thanks. But when the government can define what is and isn’t appropriate speech they will inevitably begin to claim anything they don’t agree with as bad speech that we can not allow and people will cheer that it’s the best thing that ever happened. Its happened before it will again.
@assdragon @womanontherun Correct. Capitalist libertarian governments are never great arbiters of existing power dynamics.
@assdragon @kijekijikokwe Even the ACLU realized that free speech absolutism is not a valid approach to society. And that is an organization founded by Jewish people who defended Nazi speech DURING THE HOLOCAUST. Modern Germany functions very well without constant hate speech.
As for calling you racist, I don‘t think anyone did unless I missed something. So if your subconscious is saying that, maybe unpack those feelings a bit.
As for calling you racist, I don‘t think anyone did unless I missed something. So if your subconscious is saying that, maybe unpack those feelings a bit.
@womanontherun @kijekijikokwe she said what I said was sus. Which implies I’m under suspicion of endorsing hate speech. Which I’m not.
@assdragon @kijekijikokwe I stand by my statement
@womanontherun @kijekijikokwe okay then solve prejudice. What’s your one size fits all solution that will fix all hate forever. How will we consolidate all of our social, racial, ideological, and theological differences?
@assdragon @womanontherun One way would be if we all identify and come to terms with the specific privileges we have and specific systems of oppression that we currently rely on to survive... and then we all move forward from there. I don't know what happens next exactly it's a simple (if uncomfortable) answer to your complicated-sounding question.
@kijekijikokwe Why do you think there is privilege? Do you think someone just woke and decided they have it. We place the onus of this on governments which are not going to solve these issue. They buy oil from oppressive regimes and cheap products produced by low paid factory workers and sweatshops. The world revolves around material capital. There’s only so many resources, we need then and will do what we need to get them. Only way to solve that is to overcome scarcity.
@assdragon @womanontherun I didn't say anything about you personally other than I suspected that you're projecting your insecurities about your own privileges and systems of oppression that sustain you, rather than lauding the value of absolute freedom of expression. And that was kind of rude and I apologize for the bluntness.
@womanontherun @kijekijikokwe No no, I am sorry. I misunderstood. That’s my bad.
Jeff@womanontherun @assdragon @kijekijikokwe hate speech is free speech whether you like it or not 🤷🏻♂️
artisanroxThis is an oversimplification of this issue....going to play Devil's Advocate here.
According to the US Constitution, hate speech is definitely NOT included in "free speech".
According to objective reality, yes, hate speech is included in free speech
BUT
hate-politics-driven people who scream about "fReE sPeeCh!!!!" mean freedom from consequences, and you are objectively never free of consequences for hate speech.
@artisanrox I'm not an American so no comment on first point. You're saying hate speech is just a subset of free speech where free speech objectively means all speech, I think. I disagree. Human existence is never objective. It's immersive. Context is everything. Context is what makes speech different than a cough. Speech can be violence. Silence can be violence. So, it's contextual freedom that matters. We can't be free to spread oppression through any hate. Speech or otherwise.
@artisanrox @kijekijikokwe hates a human constant. And with it comes hate speech. It sucks but it’s true. Every culture will think another is wrong and judge and sometimes hate them for those differences. The only way to fix it would be to beat out all differences in human cultures and thought and force uniformity. We can’t even stop hating and slurring each other for our minor differences.
@assdragon @artisanrox I don't see oppression as being about different vs different. It's oppression if it's powerful vs. vulnerable for the purpose of maintaining or reinforcing the power imbalance. The solution begins when we all come to terms with where we are starting from ourselves in the various intersecting systems of oppression that currently sustain us.
@artisanrox @kijekijikokwe right but you oppress people by othering them. Colonist and savages, us vs the plebeians, Aryan (really they weren’t) vs the Jew, your chosen political party vs the subhumans who dare to wrong think, people just on the wrong side of the street. If you didn’t view a group as different therefore wrong and inferior to you correct proper people than it’s be awfully hard to justify oppressing them and unconditionally hating them.
@assdragon @artisanrox Sorry Ass Dragon, you've lost me. I feel like you're maybe projecting there or something b/c (other than the ongoing *systems* of colonialism), none of that is in my worldview.
@artisanrox @kijekijikokwe it’s the some of ways people have been or othered in order to justify oppressing them. Oppression was a thing before colonialism. It doesn’t just happen on a massive scale. I grew up in the ghetto and it was very common. I had to warn the right to not get my stuff stolen, the Chines kids got the shit beat out of them because they were too different. And you better not talk to people from the other side of the tracks.
That's because while right now there are people that actively fight fir the dignity of human beings, we don't have a totally equitable, all-pervasive consequence system.
We have an antiConstitutional insurrectionist running for POTUS. Equitable justice demands imprisonment, death penalty etc. but it's not done.
People can literally say what they want, but consequences are either in place or not equitably given out.
@kijekijikokwe @artisanrox basically colonialism is one form of what seems to be part of the human animal. The herd is good not in the herd isn’t. We can conquer it as individuals but the herd mentality is strong.
@artisanrox @kijekijikokwe Doesn‘t the devil have enough advocate these days? Why carry water for hate.
The US constitution says no such thing. US case law has, to date, interpreted the first amendment to allow hate speech. But there is a strong case to be made that hate speech disproportionately impinges upon the free speech of minoritized groups & thus there is a compelling interest to limit hate speech. Much like what happens with death threats of politicians.
The US constitution says no such thing. US case law has, to date, interpreted the first amendment to allow hate speech. But there is a strong case to be made that hate speech disproportionately impinges upon the free speech of minoritized groups & thus there is a compelling interest to limit hate speech. Much like what happens with death threats of politicians.
@womanontherun @artisanrox The original US Constitution *was* hate speech. ;-)
What I'm saying is that fascists will run rings around people with the "free speech" idea. They don't want *consequences*. They all are very well aware of the legal vs. absolute definition. Michael Cohen this morning made it clear their whole existence is dodging *consequences.*
We need to steer the convo to consequences. Some consequences are in case law and some are social, and ALL punitive consequences are good for hate speech.
@artisanrox Also, the Supreme Court of Canada has heard multiple cases claiming that criminal and H/R laws prohibiting hate propaganda are a violation of the protection to freedom of expression guaranteed by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (beginning with R. v. Keegstra, 1990). The Court agrees! But also finds these restrictions on freedom of expression justifiable (under Section 1) for a variety of reason that should be obvious. Hate propaganda is expression, not free speech.
@kijekijikokwe speech that you hate doesn’t make it hate speech pass it on
Ingi StylesTheir message basically amounts to "We are free to do anything we want but you are not."