Fascism is about getting you to debate people's right to exist.
If you're debating, you're losing. Because human rights are non-negotiable! Some people can't decide whether #Ye is "mentally ill," or an actual Nazi. It doesn't matter! Once he questioned Jews' right to exist, and embraced the swastika / Hitler, he should lose the right to speak in civilized society.
Fascist filth being disseminated in public spaces means we've crossed a dangerous milestone on the road to death camps. #antifa
@sean ye is a trash person, who is having a severe manic episode. Institutionalization is a best case way to deplatform him.
Other methods will be variously less than ethical.
The folks who have used his psychosis to their benefit are villains.
@PhoenixBlue @sean This is a very tweet like response.
I don't disagree.
I'm just wary of giving him the excuse of mental illness. Most mentally ill people aren't harmful and definitely not fascist. That's between him and his doctors. What I am concerned about is the impact on society.
When you say he "can't do better right now," that removes his agency (and infantilizes him) which is extremely dangerous.
He is a fully responsible adult with a lot of wealth and power and no one forced him to go on television and praise Hitler.
If he's not the agent in this situation, then who is?
Damn this is pernicious.
He is literally not sane. I'm not at all saying that he is not doing bad things. Jesus.
Can anyone sane be a fascist? Come on.
You consider Nick Fuentes to be sane? Like all fascists, he literally wants genocide. That makes him clinically insane and a danger to himself and others.
This is a fruitless line of discussion.
I'm asking YOU not to do that.
You could call any terrorist or criminal or mass shooter insane. But they are also fully responsible for their actions.
You can call any religious nut job insane. But they are also fully responsible for their actions.
Kanye is a religious nut job and a criminally insane fascist and fully responsible for his actions. How about that?
This thread from Dave Troy sums it up.
1/West is no more โmentally illโ than Musk. They are both exhibiting signs of heavy influence. Indeed it is some kind of plantation mindset that seems to want to excuse West as lacking agency and being a victim while assuming Musk has full agency. In fact, evidence suggests they have collaborated for years and continue to do so now. https://davetroy.medium.com/the-big-history-behind-january-6th-coda-the-redpill-deception-and-the-tipping-point-312aeb98fb3d
Was Charles Manson sane? Jeffrey Dahmer? Adolf Hitler?
What does sanity have to do with any of this? Fucking irrelevant! Let it go.
Which is unironically an extremely common set of delusions for people who spiral like this. When his mom died he stopped taking meds and has progressed from egotistical fool to full blown Nazi. Yes. Sure.
The best deplatforming maneuver, the most ethical response, is for someone to force pills down his throat, strap him to a chair, and tell him what a bad boy he has been.
The alternative is either murder or suicide.
@corvusbrimstone @sean I feel like I world have had to include some sort of insult to make it *really* tweet-like ... ;)
But yeah, Germany makes Nazism illegal, and while it doesn't completely solve the fascism problem, it does make for a better society in general, I think.
@sean Surely there's some place in between "debate people's right to exist" (Agreed!) and "lose the right to speak in civilized society."
Keep pushing people outside of "civilized society" and you end up with an extremely uncivilized army looking to tear everything down.
@sean You're probably right. Maybe we can push them into camps to isolate them from civilized society?
Oh wait...
@trentbaur It's a bit discouraging to have to continually reiterate the paradox of tolerance.
Perhaps it's because we're 80 years past the Holocaust and the consequences of allowing genocidal ideologies to flourish (without severe consequences) have passed out of people's living memory?
@sean There are more options than the binary of "appeasement" and "shunning/disassociating."
All of the shunning and "pushing out of civil society" has done nothing to reduce the resurgence of these ideologies, especially in a world where they can all just congregate in unseen corners of the internet. We have to come up with better strategies.
We haven't begun to impose consequences on fascists. We're much too tolerant, and we might lose it all as a result. The safety of free society depends on denying fascists the capacity to use civil liberties to destroy civil liberties.
Germany has strict laws about Nazi propaganda because they still remember.
The US can't seem to figure out how to crack down on modern fascism. Nazis absolutely love it when civil libertarians defend them on free speech grounds.
Utterly insane.
@trentbaur Any means necessary, including deplatforming, cutting them off from payment services, treating their genocidal anti-semitic remarks as the terrorist threats they are.
Confiscating weapons. Using every resource of the federal government to infiltrate and disrupt their networks, arrest their leaders, put them on trial, (like we just did with the oaf creepers).
In other words, treat this like the war that it is, before it goes fully kinetic.
@sean It's one thing when you're talking about small groups at work, even a couple thousand. Those approaches might work in that case.
But there are a million or more people that we're talking about. The calculus of what's possible, practical and feasible completely changes in that reality.
@trentbaur The only calculus that matters where fascism is concerned, is whether you've decided to fight, or surrender.
As long as someone like you is arguing that they're too big to isolate, then that's surrender of civilized society.
I already told you how to win: it begins with deciding to fight. It begins with recognizing the enemy for the existential threat that it is. It requires a concerted effort by government, corporations, and individuals to defend democracy and human rights, without compromise or intellectual surrender.
@sean I agree with everything in this post except for the implicit, "Ready, Shoot, Aim!"
Discounting anyone who doesn't agree with you 100% as being on the other side is the path to ruin.
The target is always and forever, Nazis. In case I wasn't clear.
It's not about agreement or disagreement. It's about whether we have the collective will to preserve civilized society.
Or whether we want to weasel and waffle and defend the rights of Nazis to undermine everything we value.
@sean Also, regarding your constant use of the word Nazi, the "Nazis" appreciate your cooperation.
The goal was always to move #Nazis inside the Overton Window. Mission accomplished. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
Trent, Jim is a good friend of mine. I wonder if he'd like to weigh in on this conversation?
While we're waiting for that...
Trent, I think my point is, that I'm finished talking to you. Bye!
@sean @trentbaur I think both of you are trying to do the right thing and are talking past each other out of passion.
I agree with Sean that we canโt be afraid of calling Nazis what they are and that we should be ruthless about preventing them from operating in open society.
But I also understand Trentโs POV that we need a strategy and a plan and punching Nazis is not enough.
These are good arguments to have. Donโt throw up your hands. Somewhere in between is the right answer.
@JenResisted @sean If shunning worked to address the extremist threat, I'd be fine with it.
But I simply don't believe it works. I think it "feels good" but in the end, I believe it makes things worse.
Happy to be proven wrong. I support anything that works.
@JenResisted @sean The problem I have with shunning is that it's a primary tool of cults. And it's an addictive one.
Leaders of movements are a different matter. But when we start shunning any random person we consider bad, that's a bad path for society to go down.
Isn't that exactly the tribal other-ing that MAGA people use? We've got to do better.
@JenResisted @sean I think I'm implicitly addressing how to deal with regular people that we come into contact on a daily basis. I'm in no way defending or giving an inch to douchebags like Fuentes, Kanye, Anglin, Milo, Spencer, etc.
I'm talking about throwing around the word Nazi at neighbors or random strangers online.
I'm a progressive social Democrat, but I think the left botches the power game constantly. So I guess you could say a lefty who thinks we ought to take the gloves off.
Liberalism sort of connotes playing by the rules. And I don't think politics is a rule-based game. The good guys have to be better at the game than the bad guys.
How is it possible for everyone to have freedom of the press, speech, and judiciary, without also having social justice?
Why is this is a zero-sum game?
Because if you don't support social justice, (equal rights) you are saying that some people won't have full freedom of speech, press, and judiciary.
๐บ๐ฆ Sean Prophet โ
Saint Baal-MAล 
Phoenix Blue (they/them)
Trent 
๐จ๐ฆ
Jim Stewartson 
Wilford Snibble Snabble
GoldenGirlsRu
Jen Resisted
northern dude ๐๐
More Or Les
Udi The Tisch