The Holocaust did not begin with killing; it began with words.

Genocides do not start with mass murder. That's where they end up.

Genocides & other mass atrocity crimes begin with words - specifically, with powerful people dehumanizing a minority.

Once they are seen as less than human, anything is possible, even mass murder.

šŸ‘‰ You can speak out loudly today for the rights of others, or you can stay silent & wait for tomorrow, when your rights will be taken away too.

@andrewstroehlein A lot of hate speech is being normalized under the label free speech. This leads to the escalation of violence in vocabulary. Free speech should not be free of responsibility - or content moderation - otherwise it’s anarchy. There needs to be regulation and accountability for social media platforms like for other media.

Ā« In the beginning was the word Ā» and words lead to actions.

@Nazishmunch a minor nitpick: people being able to spread hate without pushback is not what 'anarchy' means. Quite often, it's anarchists who are pushing back against hate the hardest, so I hope you get why I feel like what you said is a mischaracterisation.
@Walk_blesseD I meant, in my opinion, freedom without responsibility/ rules is anarchy. You are free to drive a car as long as you respect the rules that protect the safety of all - even in a private parking lot. You are not allowed to drive over someone’s foot even in a private place without being held responsible for it.
@Nazishmunch I think your opinion is, at best, unhelpful because it's perpetuating an inaccurate view of what people who want anarchy are actually trying to achieve. As far as I see it, "freedom without responsibility/ rules is anarchy" is just as reductive and misleading a take as "socialism is when the government does stuff."
@Nazishmunch oh right, it looks like you're a capitalist. Nevermind.
@Walk_blesseD well, that’s a bit reductive. But fine since it seems there’s no real interest in dialogue. Have a lovely day anyway.
@Nazishmunch @Walk_blesseD Kudos to you, you handled that well. šŸ’•
@KarenStrickholm @Walk_blesseD there was a bit of left over bird energy initially 😩. but we did manage to exchange ideas in the end. šŸ˜‰
I learnt some things I didn’t know like about this Mandragon corporation which I’m definitely going to research further.
@Walk_blesseD @Nazishmunch call me a capitalist too if you must. We live in a world where money is necessary for survival. I prefer it to barter šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø more money = more resources = more able to help others. All things in moderation. Also words matter. I prefer laws that give us equal footing & opportunity. My experience with anarchists is they tend to be well meaning but naive of the complexities of society. Something experience usually educates and alters.

@mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD @Nazishmunch

Unadulterated capitalism is toxic. I find it frightening how unchallenged people repeat the mantra a company has one goal, which is profit.

Absolutely not! No entity has the right to put profit over the well-being of the individual or the community or the environment.

We need strong anarchistic, socialistic and democratic regulations in our society so that the natural instinct of any capitalist entity is to learn to benefit all three as much as able.

@silkester @mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD agree and yet that is the main indicator banks, investors and stock holders look at. When they consider EBITDA as the need to have and the others just nice to have, flying against it feels like facing gale force winds.
Look at paid sick leave. How this is not yet mandatory in the US is beyond my comprehension. And yet so it is because the one argument against it, the corporate profit margin, wins the day.
@Nazishmunch @mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD
I once spoke with the risk manager for Daimler in Stuttgart. He put the emphasis clearly on the investors. I held against, that investors only do them good short term. There needs to be a balance between customer, investor, and employees and as it turns out the environment. Daimler may very well see their last days if they can't solve CO2 emissions and environmental friendly energy sources for their engines.
@silkester @mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD And Daimler Benz has the cash reserves and the clout to do so. The fact that they don’t is probably partly because consumers buy their cars anyway as a prestige symbol so there’s no incentive for change and partly because of the corporate inertia that can be found often in large companies.

@Nazishmunch @mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD

Well, they have and had for decades the clout to generate the awareness and chose not to. Just like Exxon they employ scientists to assess their car's effect on the environment and economical risks, and just like exxon they chose not to heed the warnings.

We're not talking about days but decades.

@silkester @mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD there’s no consumer pressure on them either. We know that their lobbying budgets - which btw I feel is legalized corruption - ensure they won’t face any governmental pressure. But if consumers keep buying their products, and there’s no consumer pressure, what incentive is there for them to change?

@Nazishmunch @mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD

Bloody foresight and the chance to keep the lead instead of running behind mediocre competitors like Tesla with a shoddy quality management and a CEO who talks a good game but not much more.

Daimlers lead was well deserved for staying ahead with car developments, just not in one department: emissions.

@silkester @mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD all good then. it’s only the planet and our collective future šŸ˜³šŸ™„šŸ˜‚

@Nazishmunch @mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD

As seen in recent days confirmed again, politicians are too corrupt to undo Reaganomics. Robert Reich calculated the cost of additional paid sick days at 1,5% of the current profit margin of railroad companies. It is scandalous.

@silkester @Nazishmunch @Walk_blesseD I believe companies should focus on STAKEHOLDER value and not just shareholder value. It’s a line of thought gathering some steam. Stakeholders can be defined as employees, suppliers, customers, partners, the environment, community and shareholders. Unbridled capitalism is a bad thing.
@mattwoodget @silkester @Walk_blesseD Follow Robert Hockett and Claudia Sahm on Twitter. They are brilliant economists - but with a heart.
@Nazishmunch @mattwoodget @silkester @Walk_blesseD I think you mean follow them on the #Fediverse :-)
@eck @mattwoodget @silkester @Walk_blesseD unfortunately they’re not yet on mastodon, I believe. But yes, the day they switch, absolutely. šŸ˜‰
@silkester @mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD why are people not out in the streets marching with the railroad workers? The US is literally one of the only countries not to provide this need (I won’t even call it a benefit). It’s shameful.
If citizens lack a feeling of solidarity and civic duty towards each other, they shouldn’t expect people in power to concede anything to them out of the goodness of their hearts.

@Nazishmunch @mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD

I feel the indoctrination in my country. I never put a second thought in whether or whether not I should take sick leave, when I'm sick.

These days, I read complaints of employees that they went to work with covid and now have to do the work of their colleagues, too. It doesn't even occur to them, that their attitude was the problem in the first place.

I have hot discussions with neo-liberals about work ethics, attitude and desires all the time. šŸ˜€

@silkester @mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD keep fighting that fight. šŸ’ŖSick leave should be federally mandated. It’s a necessity, not a benefit.
Ask your legislators to make it a part of their programme and ask all your friends to call them too. The good thing is, in the US, this kind of grassroots activism does make a difference. It’s hard pushing that boulder up the hill but once it’s up there, it gains momentum rolling down. šŸ˜€

@Nazishmunch @mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD

I'm from Germany. My fight is about to keep a healthy work-life balance.

What we consider normal sounds like utopia to many in the US.

@mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD @Nazishmunch

This is deeply patronizing. Anarchists are often targets of fascists. Many gave their lives to fight fascism and here in a thread about the Holocaust starting with words, you're casually dismissing them out of hand.

@SapphicLawyer @Walk_blesseD @Nazishmunch anarchism is a political theory I disagree with. I’m not dismissing out of hand. I’m expressing an opinion. I would prefer a government with laws that provides equal opportunity for all. How would we manage refugees, online privacy, shared services without laws? Who’s responsible to manage that if not a government? Feel free to state a case for anarchism if you like.

@mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD @Nazishmunch

You're "expressing an opinion" in a thread about the Holocaust. A lot of anarchists died fighting fascism and it's entirely unnecessary to "express your opinion" about them ***here and now.***

Lots of people don't like communism, but if they went to the Holocaust museum and started loudly shit talking communists by the First They Came poem, they would rightly be called assholes.

@SapphicLawyer @Walk_blesseD @Nazishmunch oh come on. Everything is about opinion. No matter how extreme. The only reason I focused on this thread is I agreed with the original post. And I’m concerned with the rise of fascism. Then social media got social and turned into a conversation where capitalism and anarchy became discussed. Quietly. In a corner. With, I can only assume, reasonable human beings.

@mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD @Nazishmunch

If you want to know about anarchism, read a book on the subject.

But I think we both know you just wanted to be a low-effort pedant.

@SapphicLawyer @mattwoodget @Walk_blesseD asking politely to be removed from future exchanges on this thread.
I still have my Twitter account for unconstructive comments and discussions that degenerate into personal attacks. Thanks. Hope everyone has a nice day.
@Walk_blesseD I’m open to changing my mind but would like to understand your definition of anarchy. Maybe we are having a vocabulary issue?
The dictionary defines anarchy as ā€œa state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systemsā€ which is what I mean when I say the disorder is created when freedom is allowed without rules or responsibilities.

@Nazishmunch oh, for sure, I got that much. I just think the popular (and hence the dictionary) understanding of the term isn't useful in serious political discourse, because that's not what most anarchists are advocating. In fact, I find it actively harmful because it misrepresents our goals.

What most people who are actually anarchists could probably agree on is that anarchy is the struggle to dismantle social hierarchies, often because they intrinsically concentrate power.

@Walk_blesseD I think we could agree on that. For eg, the Iranian regime would consider those who are demonstrating against its rules as anarchists when what they’re doing is fighting for their rights. Is that right?

@Nazishmunch I guess I wasn't quite clear with my wording. Anarchist theory proposes that hierarchical power structures are intrinsically bad because they justify some people having coercive power over others.

Yeah, I guess the Iranian demonstrators are working to dismantle at least one particular such structure, but not all of them are anarchists in the political sense because they don't all necessarily want to abolish all such hierarchies. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure a number of them are, but they're hardly representative of the whole protest movement there rn. Yes, the Iranian state might describe them all as anarchists anyway, but it would be using the term with the same intent to conjure up the image of disorder as you were when you initially used it in this thread; not because it genuinely believes that the demonstrators are motivated by a principled opposition to the very concept of social hierarchy.

@Walk_blesseD Interesting and complex. I’m going to have to think about this.Thank you for taking the time to explain.
In the meantime, I believe inherited hierarchies such as monarchies or those based on material assets are bad but I do believe in a hierarchy of competence. In a doctor’s office, I would place the doctor’s opinion regarding my health on a higher level than I would the receptionist’s.
Unsure how a society with complete absence of any form of rules would work.
@Walk_blesseD Society needs rules to ensure that everyone’s rights are respected and that everyone has the right to a life of dignity. Without rules, psychopaths with no regard for others, win.
Our system was created to preserve the rights of the few. Some laws were created to ensure equality, but justice is applied unequally. This privilege enjoyed by a few, bolstered by ideology, religion, political or economical, and lack of accountability, creates a system of abuse of the many.

@Nazishmunch Thank you for engaging in good faith. There's definitely some nuance to be had in discussions regarding competence, and I too would, in matters of health, defer to the 'authority' (read: greater relevant knowledge) of the doctor.

Also, just on that last bit there, a society without rulers is not necessarily one without rules. People are able to collectively agree to follow rules that exist for the common good without them having to be enforced from the top down.

@Walk_blesseD Same. I may not agree with all ideas but they are thought provoking and I find the debate enriches in my own evolving ideas.
I agree with you theoretically on the consensual rulemaking but have a hard time imagining it working in real life. Human nature can be perverted. I don’t know of a society where this kind of a model has worked in the past. Still, hitching one’s wagon to a star might help keep one’s feet out of the gutter even if the star remains out of reach.
@Nazishmunch @Walk_blesseD For an example of what anarchists do when not defending against nazis, perhaps research the Mondragon system (Spain post WWII). To note, ethically arbitrary authority is the problem. Deferring to a physician is theoretically not ethically arbitrary, esp. in ref to a receptionist... though we do know that some docs sling scripts, etc. But, anarchy is more about community rule rather than lawlessness. #noamchomsky #kropotkin
@DesignedEcosystems @Walk_blesseD interesting. I googled it, it’s a worker owned cooperative system that seems to work. Thanks for sharing the info! Will definitely look into it further.
I work with 2 cooperatives - both are clients. One works well, the other significantly less so. Both have a hierarchical system though.
Wonder if the cooperative hive business model can be applied to nations…
@Nazishmunch @Walk_blesseD Ironically, it seems the confederation (original manifestation of federalism) offers a structural model for state (national) application -- a geographically and administratively concentric evolution of power based on functional need. (Currently the evolution of power is based on property rights and muscle.) N.Chomsky made clear that an anarchistic viewpoint is consistent with democratic institutions. We could do it but never by force which IMO violates the principle.
@DesignedEcosystems @Walk_blesseD True. But if you read Marx’s texts, the basic idea is essentially the good of all. The same is true for all religious ideologies as well.
Yet along the way, some people weaponize these concepts in order to gain power. What safeguards can one implement to avoid this subversion? We all saw what happened on Jan 6, literally. Yet we seem to be unable to protect ourselves from even preventing the instigator in chief from running again.
@Nazishmunch @Walk_blesseD Ok, that's a loose interpretation of the Gotha principle (from each according to his(/her) ability to each according to his need.) Our framers solved that one with the separation of powers. Unfortunately, bigots and oligarchs comprehensively abused it. But... it's still the most workable model IMO. Education and acculturation is so key, but for sure coercion and violence eventually fail. Great questions. BTW, our survival depends upon answering them.
@DesignedEcosystems @Walk_blesseD Yes, it does. If you find the answers, let me know! šŸ˜‚
@Nazishmunch @Walk_blesseD It's all about us working together to create "the answers"... which must be dynamic and adaptive. We cannot depend upon "found" answers, especially given the failure of conventional thinking reference to ethics, sustainability, distribution/evolution/construction of power, etc.
@DesignedEcosystems @Walk_blesseD yes we do. I brainstorm with a likeminded group who are trying to find alternatives to the current ways of managing a business. It’s not easy as we’re all small and the only solution to maintaining financial health is through either like minded investors (rare) or strict cash flow control. I researched Mondragon and seems the major player there (Fagor) is going bankrupt. Not encouraging. But an interesting model to study nonetheless.

@Nazishmunch @Walk_blesseD In reference to Fagor going bankrupt, half a century ain't too bad! Fordism didn't last that long and flexible regimes of production are collapsing with the rapid demise of globalism. And, as KM note, in market capitalism, all that is solid melts into air. Perspective is key.

Let's keep this discussion going because small business is a cornerstone of community economics under any system (that endures). It doesn't have to function like petite bourgeois. #community

@DesignedEcosystems @Walk_blesseD that’s true. And yes, we need to work together to think of other systems that are equitable for all. The issue is creating this other progressive vision within the boundaries of a system that does not value them.
@Nazishmunch @Walk_blesseD @KarenStrickholm
Plz excuse that I edited my comment after you boosted -- just for reading clarity. (It was a bit jumbled.) I'll be more careful FNO!!

@Walk_blesseD @Nazishmunch what they're trying to achieve and the inevitable outcome are two different things, just like with every political ideology in existence. They must be judged in the latter.

A free market capitalist aims to reduce costs, offer more choice, reduce inefficiencies - yet free market capitalism does the opposite in reality

A communist aims to increase rights, increase the baseline standard of living, and make the economy fairer - yet communism does the opposite in reality.

@jake_arkinstall @Walk_blesseD Unchecked ideologies of any kind tend to stomp over basic human rights to justify their ends.
I’m a small business owner and we try to benchmark our results not only on sales growth but on factors like employee retention, customer satisfaction etc. It’s hard bc banks and investors lend money and extend credit lines solely based on financial growth. Working with this system without sacrificing one’s values is possible but really not easy.

@Nazishmunch @jake_arkinstall

> It’s hard bc banks and investors lend money and extend credit lines solely based on financial growth. Working with this system without sacrificing one’s values is possible but really not easy.

Yes, the system is a problem. Somebody should do something about that…

@jake_arkinstall @Nazishmunch communism, defined by having a stateless and classless society, has not been achieved, so I'm not sure how you can claim that it does the opposite of what it aims to. Actors with state or capitalist power might keep a faƧade of having communism as a long-term goal because they hope the promise thereof will keep the working class in its place, but given that it's in direct opposition to the former's class interests, describing anything they do as being an action of communism would be a disservice to real communists.

You're right about capitalism though.

@Walk_blesseD @Nazishmunch Just an historical note: during the first days of WWII t'were "anarchists" who sacrificed their blood in the streets to push back against nazi/fascists. Then had to defend against stalin's goons. We as a society (US) came in much later -- though some of our literati joined in much earlier (eg. Hemingway). A rich history and conceptual legacy that loose wordage obscures.

#nowORnever #makeitREAL #democracy #communitylove #peace

@Walk_blesseD @Nazishmunch If I might add a note. My understanding is that authentic self-regulation is fundamental to anarchistic thought. So is dissolution of (ethically) arbitrary (ie., hegemonic) power structures (hierarchy). The principles also surely also include #mutualaid

#careforearth #nowORnever #lifestylechange #sustainablelifestyle #deepconservation #sustainablecommunities #resilientcommunities #transitiontowns #closingloops #mutualaid #permaculture #makeitREAL

@Nazishmunch @Walk_blesseD anarchy is a much older and broader word than ā€œthat which anarchists wantā€.