Andrew StroehleinDec 2, 2022

The Holocaust did not begin with killing; it began with words.

Genocides do not start with mass murder. That's where they end up.

Genocides & other mass atrocity crimes begin with words - specifically, with powerful people dehumanizing a minority.

Once they are seen as less than human, anything is possible, even mass murder.

👉 You can speak out loudly today for the rights of others, or you can stay silent & wait for tomorrow, when your rights will be taken away too.

Show threadNazishDec 2, 2022

@andrewstroehlein A lot of hate speech is being normalized under the label free speech. This leads to the escalation of violence in vocabulary. Free speech should not be free of responsibility - or content moderation - otherwise it’s anarchy. There needs to be regulation and accountability for social media platforms like for other media.

« In the beginning was the word » and words lead to actions.

Show threadArielDec 2, 2022
@Nazishmunch a minor nitpick: people being able to spread hate without pushback is not what 'anarchy' means. Quite often, it's anarchists who are pushing back against hate the hardest, so I hope you get why I feel like what you said is a mischaracterisation.
Show threadNazishDec 2, 2022
@Walk_blesseD I meant, in my opinion, freedom without responsibility/ rules is anarchy. You are free to drive a car as long as you respect the rules that protect the safety of all - even in a private parking lot. You are not allowed to drive over someone’s foot even in a private place without being held responsible for it.
Show threadArielDec 2, 2022
@Nazishmunch I think your opinion is, at best, unhelpful because it's perpetuating an inaccurate view of what people who want anarchy are actually trying to achieve. As far as I see it, "freedom without responsibility/ rules is anarchy" is just as reductive and misleading a take as "socialism is when the government does stuff."
Show threadNazishDec 2, 2022
@Walk_blesseD I’m open to changing my mind but would like to understand your definition of anarchy. Maybe we are having a vocabulary issue?
The dictionary defines anarchy as “a state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems” which is what I mean when I say the disorder is created when freedom is allowed without rules or responsibilities.
Show threadAriel

@Nazishmunch oh, for sure, I got that much. I just think the popular (and hence the dictionary) understanding of the term isn't useful in serious political discourse, because that's not what most anarchists are advocating. In fact, I find it actively harmful because it misrepresents our goals.

What most people who are actually anarchists could probably agree on is that anarchy is the struggle to dismantle social hierarchies, often because they intrinsically concentrate power.

Dec 2, 2022 at 11:36amWeb
Show threadNazishDec 2, 2022
@Walk_blesseD I think we could agree on that. For eg, the Iranian regime would consider those who are demonstrating against its rules as anarchists when what they’re doing is fighting for their rights. Is that right?
Show threadArielDec 2, 2022

@Nazishmunch I guess I wasn't quite clear with my wording. Anarchist theory proposes that hierarchical power structures are intrinsically bad because they justify some people having coercive power over others.

Yeah, I guess the Iranian demonstrators are working to dismantle at least one particular such structure, but not all of them are anarchists in the political sense because they don't all necessarily want to abolish all such hierarchies. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure a number of them are, but they're hardly representative of the whole protest movement there rn. Yes, the Iranian state might describe them all as anarchists anyway, but it would be using the term with the same intent to conjure up the image of disorder as you were when you initially used it in this thread; not because it genuinely believes that the demonstrators are motivated by a principled opposition to the very concept of social hierarchy.

Show threadNazishDec 2, 2022
@Walk_blesseD Interesting and complex. I’m going to have to think about this.Thank you for taking the time to explain.
In the meantime, I believe inherited hierarchies such as monarchies or those based on material assets are bad but I do believe in a hierarchy of competence. In a doctor’s office, I would place the doctor’s opinion regarding my health on a higher level than I would the receptionist’s.
Unsure how a society with complete absence of any form of rules would work.
Show threadNazishDec 2, 2022
@Walk_blesseD Society needs rules to ensure that everyone’s rights are respected and that everyone has the right to a life of dignity. Without rules, psychopaths with no regard for others, win.
Our system was created to preserve the rights of the few. Some laws were created to ensure equality, but justice is applied unequally. This privilege enjoyed by a few, bolstered by ideology, religion, political or economical, and lack of accountability, creates a system of abuse of the many.
Show threadArielDec 2, 2022

@Nazishmunch Thank you for engaging in good faith. There's definitely some nuance to be had in discussions regarding competence, and I too would, in matters of health, defer to the 'authority' (read: greater relevant knowledge) of the doctor.

Also, just on that last bit there, a society without rulers is not necessarily one without rules. People are able to collectively agree to follow rules that exist for the common good without them having to be enforced from the top down.

Show threadNazishDec 2, 2022
@Walk_blesseD Same. I may not agree with all ideas but they are thought provoking and I find the debate enriches in my own evolving ideas.
I agree with you theoretically on the consensual rulemaking but have a hard time imagining it working in real life. Human nature can be perverted. I don’t know of a society where this kind of a model has worked in the past. Still, hitching one’s wagon to a star might help keep one’s feet out of the gutter even if the star remains out of reach.
Show threadRichardDec 2, 2022
@Nazishmunch @Walk_blesseD For an example of what anarchists do when not defending against nazis, perhaps research the Mondragon system (Spain post WWII). To note, ethically arbitrary authority is the problem. Deferring to a physician is theoretically not ethically arbitrary, esp. in ref to a receptionist... though we do know that some docs sling scripts, etc. But, anarchy is more about community rule rather than lawlessness. #noamchomsky #kropotkin
Show threadNazishDec 2, 2022
@DesignedEcosystems @Walk_blesseD interesting. I googled it, it’s a worker owned cooperative system that seems to work. Thanks for sharing the info! Will definitely look into it further.
I work with 2 cooperatives - both are clients. One works well, the other significantly less so. Both have a hierarchical system though.
Wonder if the cooperative hive business model can be applied to nations…
Show threadRichardDec 2, 2022
@Nazishmunch @Walk_blesseD Ironically, it seems the confederation (original manifestation of federalism) offers a structural model for state (national) application -- a geographically and administratively concentric evolution of power based on functional need. (Currently the evolution of power is based on property rights and muscle.) N.Chomsky made clear that an anarchistic viewpoint is consistent with democratic institutions. We could do it but never by force which IMO violates the principle.
Show threadNazishDec 2, 2022
@DesignedEcosystems @Walk_blesseD True. But if you read Marx’s texts, the basic idea is essentially the good of all. The same is true for all religious ideologies as well.
Yet along the way, some people weaponize these concepts in order to gain power. What safeguards can one implement to avoid this subversion? We all saw what happened on Jan 6, literally. Yet we seem to be unable to protect ourselves from even preventing the instigator in chief from running again.
Show threadRichardDec 2, 2022
@Nazishmunch @Walk_blesseD Ok, that's a loose interpretation of the Gotha principle (from each according to his(/her) ability to each according to his need.) Our framers solved that one with the separation of powers. Unfortunately, bigots and oligarchs comprehensively abused it. But... it's still the most workable model IMO. Education and acculturation is so key, but for sure coercion and violence eventually fail. Great questions. BTW, our survival depends upon answering them.
Show threadNazishDec 2, 2022
@DesignedEcosystems @Walk_blesseD Yes, it does. If you find the answers, let me know! 😂
Show threadRichardDec 2, 2022
@Nazishmunch @Walk_blesseD It's all about us working together to create "the answers"... which must be dynamic and adaptive. We cannot depend upon "found" answers, especially given the failure of conventional thinking reference to ethics, sustainability, distribution/evolution/construction of power, etc.
Show threadNazishDec 2, 2022
@DesignedEcosystems @Walk_blesseD yes we do. I brainstorm with a likeminded group who are trying to find alternatives to the current ways of managing a business. It’s not easy as we’re all small and the only solution to maintaining financial health is through either like minded investors (rare) or strict cash flow control. I researched Mondragon and seems the major player there (Fagor) is going bankrupt. Not encouraging. But an interesting model to study nonetheless.
Show threadRichardDec 2, 2022

@Nazishmunch @Walk_blesseD In reference to Fagor going bankrupt, half a century ain't too bad! Fordism didn't last that long and flexible regimes of production are collapsing with the rapid demise of globalism. And, as KM note, in market capitalism, all that is solid melts into air. Perspective is key.

Let's keep this discussion going because small business is a cornerstone of community economics under any system (that endures). It doesn't have to function like petite bourgeois. #community

Show threadNazishDec 2, 2022
@DesignedEcosystems @Walk_blesseD that’s true. And yes, we need to work together to think of other systems that are equitable for all. The issue is creating this other progressive vision within the boundaries of a system that does not value them.
Show threadRichardDec 2, 2022
@Nazishmunch @Walk_blesseD @KarenStrickholm
Plz excuse that I edited my comment after you boosted -- just for reading clarity. (It was a bit jumbled.) I'll be more careful FNO!!