christianNov 25, 2022
Denny
Economics: Humans only value things monetarily.
Sociology: Uh, I don't ...
Economics: Humans are always rational and value is calculated by a complex inner calculus.
Sociology: Uh, Psy, can you help?
Psychology: That's not how humans ...
Economics: ALSO MY SYSTEM WILL GROW EXPONENTIALLY FOREVER!!
Physics: *drops teacup*
Nov 24, 2022 at 12:11pmWeb
Show threadJonxe Hart (they/them)Nov 25, 2022

@denny

Everyone: Hey Economics, your assumptions are not just objectively wrong, they are absurd.

Economics: *holding their fingers in their ears* "NA NANANANANNA I DON'T HEAR YOU!!! Free hands! Adam Smith! YOU CANNOT CHANGE OUR MINDS!!! We are a real science!"

Everyone else: *Picard face palm*

Show thread%70%61%75%6CNov 25, 2022
@JonxeHart @denny I find it fascinating how for so many people economics means neoliberal economics. I suppose especially in US universities and probably australian ones, there's not a lot of space for anything else.
Show threadNgati Pakeha KuiaNov 25, 2022
@denny @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart Auckland Uni school of Business too. Subverted one of my kids.
Show thread%70%61%75%6CNov 25, 2022
@CarolynStirling @denny @JonxeHart unis all over the place are deskilling students so more students will stay enrolled (I teach computer science and IT and the quality has nosedived over the past decade) but the economics stuff is more ideological, I think. marxist economists in particular can have trouble getting employment at universities. No matter your ideological view, a lack of diversity means we can't understand the challenges we face as there's no debate
Show threadParty SamNov 25, 2022

@muaddib1971

I have also noticed the nosedive in quality over past 10 years. Can you please provide examples of deskilling? It's the first time I'm hearing this term in this context, explains a lot actually.

Show thread%70%61%75%6CNov 25, 2022
@partysam ok, there's been a shift in my area away from teaching and assessing deeper topics in a degree. just a few examples I've observed - turning individual assessments into group assessments, switching to 'easier' programming languages, removing theory from courses, making assessments more of completion exercises. In my own field I could write a thesis about this.
Show threadSpeakerToManagersNov 25, 2022
@JonxeHart @CarolynStirling @denny @muaddib1971
Yes. My Marxist economist friend finally retired a couple of years ago after fighting the good fight all his career. He was consistently pushed back and sidelined by more orthodox administrations.
Show threadMark ArmstrongJun 28, 2023
@JonxeHart @muaddib1971 @denny @CarolynStirling it took me far too long to parse deskilling as de-skilling and not desk killing, which I assumed was some unethical way to increase student numbers.
Show threadSonjaNov 27, 2022
@denny @CarolynStirling @JonxeHart @muaddib1971 I think there are voices who have a different view of how we think about economics in the real world Paul Dalziel has been talking about it since I was at uni with him in the early 80s Marilyn Waring has been challenging it from a feminist perspective even longer. But a bit like politics the tendency is to opt for the theoretical view that fits your mindset https://www.theactuary.com/2022/11/03/interview-professor-paul-dalziel-changing-focus-economies-growth-wellbeing
Interview: Professor Paul Dalziel on changing the focus of economies from growth to wellbeing

Paul Dalziel talks to Alex Martin about the true purpose of economics and the lessons we can draw from the 2019 New Zealand wellbeing budget

The Actuary
Show threadpgcdNov 25, 2022

@muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny
Out of curiosity: is there any school of economics that treats reality as something else than a special case we can ignore?
And if there is, are its/theirs predictions actually verifiable and falsifiable?

Honest question, as I have absolutely no knowledge of proper economics outside what trickles down (ahah) from, well, the rest of the world.

Show thread%70%61%75%6CNov 25, 2022
@pgcd @JonxeHart @denny because of the politicisation of the field, I think it's difficult. I find the theory that is popular with progressives these days is Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) and Marxist economic theory has had a lasting impact. but like I say, I think it's a field that has been politicised so much so that mainstream economists will literally say the opposite thing to an MMT economist.
Show thread%70%61%75%6CNov 25, 2022
@pgcd @JonxeHart @denny but then part of mainstream economics is the idea of trickle down economics which as far as I know does not have a shred of evidence to support it.
Show threadDennyNov 25, 2022
@muaddib1971 @pgcd @JonxeHart
Yeah, UK gov is keen on trickle down again now. *sigh*
Show thread%70%61%75%6CNov 26, 2022
@denny @pgcd @JonxeHart they also believe in the myth of the compassionate conservative ...
Show threadDennyNov 26, 2022
@muaddib1971 I'm not sure 'believe' is the word I'd use. More 'find convenient to promote'.
Show threadpgcdNov 25, 2022

@muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny
There's actually evidence to the contrary according to the IMF
https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/Staff-Discussion-Notes/Issues/2016/12/31/Causes-and-Consequences-of-Income-Inequality-A-Global-Perspective-42986

But saying so is apparently ideological (as opposed to sticking to a disproved theory just because it lines your pockets, I suppose)

Causes and Consequences of Income Inequality: A Global Perspective

This paper analyzes the extent of income inequality from a global perspective, its drivers, and what to do about it. The drivers of inequality vary widely amongst countries, with some common drivers being the skill premium associated with technical change and globalization, weakening protection for labor, and lack of financial inclusion in developing countries. We find that increasing the income share of the poor and the middle class actually increases growth while a rising income share of the top 20 percent results in lower growth—that is, when the rich get richer, benefits do not trickle down. This suggests that policies need to be country specific but should focus on raising the income share of the poor, and ensuring there is no hollowing out of the middle class. To tackle inequality, financial inclusion is imperative in emerging and developing countries while in advanced economies, policies should focus on raising human capital and skills and making tax systems more progressive.

IMF
Show thread%70%61%75%6CNov 25, 2022
@pgcd @JonxeHart @denny which is somewhat odd as the IMF are one of the key international institutions that pushes neoliberal 'reform'.
Show threadDaniel Tuttle 🌵🤘Nov 25, 2022
@muaddib1971 @pgcd @JonxeHart @denny it was always a "common sense" plea for the GOP to gain votes and radically reduce government, the real goal. Like a lot of common wisdom, it's garbage. The rich is getting proportionally richer to how everyone is getting poorer.
Show thread%70%61%75%6CNov 26, 2022
@DanielTuttle @pgcd @JonxeHart @denny yeah, it's a zero sum game ... it's possible to grow the pie (wealth) but one of the best ways to do that is to do the opposite to the GOP.
Show threadJoyographicNov 26, 2022
@muaddib1971 @pgcd @JonxeHart @denny I prefer tickle-down economics
Show thread%70%61%75%6CNov 28, 2022
@joyographic @pgcd @JonxeHart @denny well apparently it was originally supposed to be a joke. So, yeah 😀
Show threadjoshie (pronounsed YAH-shee)Nov 28, 2022
@JonxeHart @muaddib1971 @pgcd @denny you can sub “piss on you” for “trickle down” and it makes more sense. but piss doesn’t sell, i guess.
Show threadDennyNov 28, 2022
@skaficianado Only to a very niche clientèle 😉​
Show thread%70%61%75%6CDec 1, 2022
@skaficianado @JonxeHart @pgcd @denny so *that's* why it's been raining so much ...
Show threadToast CongerNov 25, 2022
@pgcd @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny Behavioural economics starts down the right path. But then... it's basically sociology and psych so.
Show threadKingMobNov 25, 2022
@toastfloats @pgcd @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny The founders of behavioral economics, Kahneman and Tversky, couldn’t even get their early papers published in econ journals, because they directly attacked the foundational assumption that people are inherently rational in econ matters.
Show threadpgcdNov 25, 2022

@kingmob @toastfloats @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny

Makes sense - it's the reaction of most engineers when they're told cows are not, in fact, spherical.

Show threadMichael Snook 🧙🏳️‍⚧️🏴‍☠️☭🚀Nov 25, 2022
@kingmob @toastfloats @pgcd @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny i only ever read K&T in psych class, never in econ.
Show threadToast CongerNov 25, 2022
@msnook @kingmob @pgcd @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny Because AdamSmith forfend we should ditch homo economicus in favour of models that more closely match the way the world apppears to function. Honestly, another idea we should introduce to economists writ large is Occam's Razor.
Show threadSpeakerToManagersNov 25, 2022
@denny @pgcd @toastfloats @kingmob @msnook @JonxeHart @muaddib1971
I think we’ll have to start with Occam’s Guillotine and work down.
Show threadSisyphus with a HatMay 30, 2023

@toastfloats @pgcd @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny

There is also some value to Veblen's critiques, as well as Evolutionary E onomics that followed later, although one should be circumspect in reading and evaluating.

Show threadRichard GadsdenNov 25, 2022

@pgcd @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny

Most of microeconomics operates in the real world, and it makes falsifiable predictions. It's just that its predictions are, well, micro.

It's macroeconomics that gets the discipline a bad name. Even there, there's the school of behavioural economics. But it's hard to generalise from that up to the macroeconomic level (hard as in no-one has done it yet).

Show threadRichard GadsdenNov 25, 2022

@pgcd @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny If you know any physics, one way to think about it is like classical dynamics; if you assume zero friction, the maths is easy, but only works in some special cases. If you bring in the full Navier-Stokes equations (for air resistance), then then the maths is impossible (no analytic solutions, you have to use numerical approximations), but the answers work.

Except economics doesn't even have the equivalent of the Navier-Stokes equations.

Show threadGabriela Noriega 🏳️‍⚧️ 🇧🇷Nov 25, 2022
@pgcd @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny Perhaps behavioural economics and some variants of marxist economics but I'm very unsure about the later.
Show threadRhinos Worry Me has movedNov 25, 2022
@pgcd @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny
We need you now, @Molly !!
But just in case she's busy - yes, there are entire fields of economics which act as though the rules of physics and nature were real:
Show threadRhinos Worry Me has movedNov 25, 2022
@pgcd @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny @Molly
Aaand I hit ctrl-enter because I'm not used to this interface yet :(
The link was going to be:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_economics
Ecological economics - Wikipedia

Show threadpgcdNov 25, 2022
@RhinosWorryMe @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny @Molly this seems promising, yes
Show threadEszter / エスター🌻Nov 25, 2022
@pgcd I found Behavioral economics and the work by Kahnemann, Tversky, Thaler, etc. super interesting when I was still studying Business. Kahnemann even got the Nobel price. Basically they showed effectively that the homo oeconomicus (= rational decision maker) does not exist.
Show threadAndrew C (he/him)Nov 25, 2022
@pgcd @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny
Most mainstream economics taught fits into the Neoclassical understanding often with dips into New Keynesianism (basically what if we smash classical thinking into Keynes non-classical work).
Genuinely Heterodox macroeconomics is basically coming out of the MMT academics, with a few places splashing some Georgism around.
Show threadGssyNov 26, 2022
@JonxeHart @muaddib1971 @denny @pgcd maybe ecological economics? EM Schumacher's "small is beautiful" is definitely worth a read. Greer's "wealth of nature" is good too. Both view natural goods and services as the fundamental physical underpinning of our economy
Show threadSchtefNov 27, 2022

@pgcd @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny

Sure. There are many approaches and schools of thought. Check out heterodox economics. Post Keynesian, behavioral and some of the others that were mentioned by others in the comments.

Even neoclassical (mainstream) economists do a lot of good empirical work, and often disprove their own theoretical assumptions and conclusions.

Show threadJulian GonggrijpMay 30, 2023
@pgcd @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny There is #DonutEconomy, invented by the British economist Kate Raworth. Very evidence-based and even gaining some traction.
Show threadDennyMay 30, 2023
@juliangonggrijp #DoughnutEconomics then, if it's British 😃​ Looks comprehensive, and interesting, thanks!
Show threadProfessional Calvin ArchitectJun 27, 2023
@pgcd @muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny the majority of a course in game theory is about optimal behavior is mostly not seen in real life
Show threadCaptBobbersNov 26, 2022

@muaddib1971 @JonxeHart @denny
An Austrian I know said that in her history of econ class at uni she asked when they'd talk about Marx. She was told by her professor that Marxism had "no relevance" on the subject.

I get not straight up teaching Marxism but denying it has had any effect on econ history is wild. Many of the SocDem type reforms from the UK's NHS to FDR's New Deal were a direct result of Liberals opposing Marxist calls for revolution.

Show thread%70%61%75%6CNov 28, 2022
@CaptBobbers @JonxeHart @denny often you'll get more marxism in a sociology class than in an ecoomics class. at uni in my teaching degree we covered bourdieu who bases his social theory on marx. I think his ideas are an important contribution by extending the idea of capital and it's where you get ideas like social capital, etc. I'd also say that Modern Monetary theory owes Marx some debt, as well as Pickety. It can't be ignored if you're serious about economic theory.
Show threadToast CongerNov 25, 2022

@JonxeHart @denny
Everyone: Really, Economics, you've got some ideas and we gave them a go over and over but they never work so...

Economics: <singing louder> But I've got graphs, nice graphs, beautiful graphs!!

Show threadKlaus SteinNov 25, 2022
@JonxeHart @denny And they haven't even read Adam Smith let alone understood him.
Show threadOkonaNov 25, 2022
@JonxeHart @denny i like the part with „We are a real science!“ (-:
Show threadLacci 🐇Nov 25, 2022
@JonxeHart
The great thing is even some of Adam Smith's ideas seem so radical to economists now that ones who haven't actually gone over his original work in detail would think someone too far left to be mainstream had come up with them if presented with them. They kind of idolize a fantasy Adam Smith they made up out of bits of his work, some interpreted as meaning something very different from what he meant.
@denny @arclight
Show threadJens AytonJun 2, 2023
@Lacci @JonxeHart @denny @arclight
Adam Smith: Strong trade unions are necessary to stop vulture capitalists from eating the world.
Heterodox economics: Not like that!
Show threadTom von ClefNov 30, 2022

@JonxeHart @denny

But economics is not like that. Even Adam Smith:

"But the rich and powerful, Smith argued, are neither happier nor morally superior to other people. They are often miserable and vicious. And they use our illusions about them to justify their privileges. Elites benefit from inequalities of wealth and power in our society because the basic structure of our emotional life, sympathy, leads us to identify with our oppressors."

https://psyche.co/ideas/adam-smith-warned-us-about-sympathising-with-the-elites

Adam Smith warned us about sympathising with the elites | Psyche Ideas

Sympathy is both key to human psychology and source of much of our misery. For Adam Smith, the philosophical life is the cure

Psyche
Show threadTom von ClefNov 30, 2022

@JonxeHart @denny

'Nevertheless, [Adam Smith] was wary of businessmen and warned of their "conspiracy against the public or in some other contrivance to raise prices". Again and again, Smith warned of the collusive nature of business interests, which may form cabals or monopolies, fixing the highest price "which can be squeezed out of the buyers". Smith also warned that a business-dominated political system would allow a conspiracy of businesses and industry...'
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith

Adam Smith - Wikipedia

Show threadChristian LynbechJun 3, 2023

@JonxeHart @denny Sorry, but it seems you spelled the fingers in ears part wrong, it should have been. NaN NaN NaN NaN NaN NaN NaN NaN NaN NaN DON'T HEAR YOU!!!

😏

Show thread⌛️🧮 Bruce Carnwell (🐣 & 🌴)Nov 25, 2022
@denny very amusing! I have met quite a number of Economists who think, or used to think, like this :-) Luckily, there has been quite a bit of development/progression in the economics field of late. 🥂
Show threadWayneNov 25, 2022
@denny
nicely satirical, and I used to subscribe to pretty much the same school of thought, buuuut ...
I don't know that many economists claim infinite, and especially not *infinite exponential* growth is realistically possible.
buuut ... economic activity can approach near-perpetual growth, over quite long terms. How? Because increasing economic activity is not *necessarily* hard-linked to adding new physical resources.
buuuut ... yeah, a significant portion of economics seems to be voodoo mixed with wishful thinking. 😏 So it goes.
Show threadGssyNov 25, 2022
@projectsinbad @denny that is a nice theory, can you show me one society that had long term economic growth without an increased level of consumption?