Mastodawn

Scott Barolo Nov 21, 2022

#9ReplyGuys: a 2018 twitter thread by me and @shrewshrew

Reply Guy #2: THE TONE POLICE

Scott Barolo Nov 21, 2022

#9ReplyGuys: a 2018 twitter thread by me and @shrewshrew

Reply Guy #3: THE GASLIGHTER

#9ReplyGuys: a 2018 🐤 thread by @shrewshrew and me

Reply Guy #4: THE COOKIE MANSTER

Scott Barolo

If you mention #9ReplyGuys elsewhere please cite @shrewshrew, my 50/50 writing partner on this project (which probably means she did way more than half and I didn’t notice)

#9ReplyGuys: a 2018 🐤 thread by @shrewshrew and me

Reply Guy #5: HIMPATHY
(term coined by Kate Manne)

#9ReplyGuys: a 2018 🐤 thread by @shrewshrew and me

Reply Guy #6: THE SEA LION 🦭
aka Just Asking Questions (JAQass)

The term #sealioning was inspired by a 2014 Wondermark comic: wondermark.com/1k62/

More about #sealioning: here’s that Wondermark comic by David Malki
wondermark.com/1k62/

Scott Barolo Nov 23, 2022

#9ReplyGuys: a 2018 🐤 thread by @shrewshrew and me

Reply Guy #7: THE MANSPLAINER
(no shortage of these on Mastodon)

Scott Barolo Nov 23, 2022

I will post #9ReplyGuys #8 and #9 soon!
In the meantime here’s one of the great moments in the history of #mansplaining: a man mansplains mansplaining on Twitter.
(The original flowchart he’s trying to refute is by Kim Gordon.)

Scott Barolo Nov 23, 2022

#9ReplyGuys: a 2018 🐤 thread by @shrewshrew and me

Reply Guy #8: THE PRESTIGE

Scott Barolo Nov 24, 2022

#9ReplyGuys: a 2018 🐤 thread by @shrewshrew and me

Reply Guy #9: TROLLS, CREEPS and FOOLS

Scott Barolo Nov 24, 2022

The idea behind #9ReplyGuys is that, if you wish, you can use the 9 images in the thread above to quickly categorize & dismiss sexist replies. Misogynists *hate* being called unoriginal.
Thanks from me and @shrewshrew for your support, suggestions, boosts and encouragement 💕

Scott Barolo Nov 24, 2022

[note: if you want to see more details about each of these guys, with a graphic showing examples of each type of response, scroll up in the thread! 👆]

Scott Barolo Dec 13, 2022

Honestly a lot of the people on here need to learn basic reply etiquette. Mastodon is becoming known as the home of the smug mansplaining tone-policing reply.

A lot of white people feel way too comfortable here and post our unexamined unfiltered reactions without considering how annoying and exclusionary we’re being.

If you’re typing something “helpful” and the person you’re replying to didn’t ask for help or doesn’t follow you, the most helpful thing you can do is hit Cancel and move on.

ooh, this one touched a nerve. you’re calling yourselves out in the replies, defending your god given right to be annoying creeps lmao

it might possibly say something about Mastodon that in the entire #9ReplyGuys thread above (concerning misogyny) there was not a single negative reply, but as soon as obnoxious behavior from white people is mentioned, suddenly feelings got hurt

so it may be worth mentioning that ALL of the toxic reactions described in the #9ReplyGuys thread above are used by white people (including WW) against people of color all the time, especially against Black people who talk about racism. None of it is exclusive to gender harassment/discrimination.

Mastodon can be a safe place for everybody, or it can be a comfortable place for white people, but while #racism exists it can’t be both.

Kristen / Sesaluna Feb 19, 2023

@sbarolo cannot believe this needed saying. Oh wait, yes I can. 😕

Aethelstan Aug 22, 2023

@sbarolo so. I with you except — I can’t help being a white guy. It’s how I came out.
Can we use some other descriptor for the bozos you mention? Thanks.

Scott Barolo Aug 22, 2023

@Aethelstan Here’s my perspective: it’s very liberating to acknowledge that members of privileged groups (e.g., whites, guys) disproportionately engage in certain harmful exclusionary behaviors, and it’s good to be aware of those patterns and try not to perpetuate them.
Getting hung up on “not all whites” and “not all men” is the opposite of acknowledging privilege and taking responsibility.

Mari Aug 22, 2023

@Aethelstan @sbarolo

I understand where you're coming from, at least with being white. I'm not a dick just cuz of my skin color.

But I've learned by listening that a lot of other white people assume I've got more credibility than non-white people regardless of our actual skills. And I've learned through experience that men get that same automatic belief.

Your privilege doesn't make you bad. It means your actions can have outsize effects on others.

Mari Aug 22, 2023

@Aethelstan @sbarolo

And more directly, saying "white guy" is not an insult.

If white people are the ones making other people uncomfortable, we are the people who need to be addressed.

If men are the ones making other people uncomfortable, they are the ones who need to be addressed.

If all of that makes you uncomfortable, you should consider why that makes you uncomfortable.

Aethelstan Aug 22, 2023

@margoose @sbarolo
I’m saying the broad brush is not helpful at getting the message across — it is off putting to “allies”. And — we can do better (see matrix). :)

Scenario Dec 13, 2022

@sbarolo Fortunately Mastadon has relatively few accounts who see fit to tell other folks what they should and shouldn’t say online in a free society. Maybe those snowflakes would be more comfy over on NextDoor?

Scott Barolo Dec 13, 2022

@scenario blocked bye

Chema Hernández Gil Dec 13, 2022

@sbarolo That's interesting. Definitely very different from how I do it. I think that as long as I'm being respectful, it's perfectly fine to chime in on somebody's post, regardless of follow relationship. I see interesting posts all days and sometimes it's exciting to interact with strangers in a more meaningful manner. Otherwise we're limited to boost and like.

@chema every time I say “don’t be annoying” some guy responds “well then I can’t say anything at all”. If you say so!

Yeah, I get those once in a while. Annoying fucks.

@chema I can’t tell if you’re accepting the fair criticism in a self-mocking way, or if being called out for stating an overused false dilemma just went over your head.

If the first, that joke is too Poe’s law to work online!

@robinshipton I was unaware I was being criticized. I read my original comment, saw it wasn't clear what I was commenting on, so I clarified it. So not sure which of those two options I fall under.

@chema I think you might have misunderstood the first post, so your reply then built-in that misunderstanding.

It’s not saying “don’t post”, and it’s not only about white people. It’s also about men replying to women, or any other person with a privilege replying to someone without that same axis of privilege.

The post is saying that it’s not enough to feel we are being respectful. We also need to consider whether our post might use or reinforce that privilege differential.

@chema Scott says it well here to another poster who misunderstood: https://zirk.us/@sbarolo/109513038997371166

Scott Barolo (@[email protected])

@[email protected] and I’m not saying don’t interact with people who don’t follow you. I’m saying it’s rude to give unsolicited advice to strangers. If you’re mutuals with someone, you might take more liberties, since you have both expressed an interest in each other’s opinions. I can’t believe this needs to be explained

zirkus

Thank you for sharing that. And as I said in another post, I get why he is saying that and that is one very valid way of approaching interactions here.

I, personally, have no issue with strangers giving me unsolicited advice when done respectfully because I've learned a lot from unsolicited advice. I have a long track record of being wrong and being unaware I am wrong and getting constructive feedback has helped me realize I am wrong and that's cool.

That said, it is clear that many people view this space in a different way, so I will certainly avoid chiming in on conversations.

@chema That sounds like a very humble perspective that I can admire.

I think avoiding chiming in on discussions entirely is going overboard though. The nuance is to avoid unsolicited advice specifically. Unsolicited discussions which avoid that microagression and others can be delightful and good for everyone involved!

I think the medium is the challenge here. Nuance in 800 characters is not straightforward and even following threads can be challenging since we use different interfaces. Based on the popularity of this entire thread, there are many legitimate grievances by many people who've been microaggressed (or just straight up aggressed).

I want to be respectful in my interactions, and that means being diligent. If I cannot be reasonably assured that my comment will not be a negative interaction (like in this very conversation), then I am going to avoid chiming in. But that also takes time and effort, which I might not have or be willing to expend, so I think it is better to err on the side of caution.

As for my own posts, folks are always welcome to chime in with advice, unsolicited or otherwise.

OkazuYuri Aug 21, 2023

@chema @robinshipton No problem with unsolicited advice? Okay then - if you read a post that is a general comment on "some guys' behavior" and you take it personally, you are admitting that you are that guy.

Time to read the last line, stop talking and do more listening.

Hope that helps.

That’s correct. My original post was directly replying to this part (my emphasis):

A lot of white people feel way too comfortable here and post our unexamined unfiltered reactions without considering how annoying and exclusionary we’re being.

If you’re typing something “helpful” and the person you’re replying to didn’t ask for help or doesn’t follow you, the most helpful thing you can do is hit Cancel and move on.

The entire thread was broader and that context changed it, but I still felt my comment was relevant enough.

@chema I see it now. In the context of the thread then though, your reply read like “This advice doesn’t apply to me since I’m respectful.”

I can see you didn’t mean that, now. That’s why you got the reply you did though.

Purple Dec 20, 2022

@sbarolo @chema Funny how ready arseholes are to publicy admit that everything they have to say is to bully other people.

Siderea, Sibylla Bostoniensis Dec 14, 2022

@chema
> That's interesting. Definitely very different from how I do it. I think that as long as I'm being respectful-

What you are looking at is literally a list of ways that people (typically men) interact that they think are perfectly respectful and which *actually aren't*.

Do with that information what you will.

@sbarolo

No doubt. My comment was focused on the comment I directly replied to, which included the "a lot of white people feel way too comfortable here" comment. I am obviously not white, so I certainly didn't feel like the subsequent suggestions applied to me, so I was comparing and contrasting it to my own personal approach to interaction in the #fediverse. Should have made that clearer.

"Extinct" Onceler Dec 14, 2022

@sbarolo I get relatively few replies, and I don't take it personally, except that people seem to like to talk more than converse. There's a blog site for that though. This isn't a blog site, a weblog site, or a megaphone site. If I don't have something amusing to say atm or am not trying to actively engage, I try to just favorite stuff.

Sara Reine Dec 14, 2022

@sbarolo I've been hit by drive-by mansplaining on here. My personal criteria for mansplaining is that they're telling me something I already know, and they would know that I know it if they took 5 minutes to read my post closer, OR look at my profile. It's also mansplaining (sometimes) if it's unprompted, but I like understanding things better, so I try to take things in good faith. Drives me crazy, though. I am very liberal blocking and muting.

@sbarolo so … white people aren’t allowed to engage with anyone on Mastodon unless they’re invited to do so in the post?
Gee, I’m old enough to know this sounds very, very familiar.
I’m happy the majority of people , at least in the US, have evolved beyond this after decades of protests and bloodshed.
And for the record, I’m not being helpful to your racist hate, I’m calling it out. And I will always call it out, whether invited to do so or not and whatever side of the fence it’s coming from.

@pammystarr tell me more about how white people are discriminated against 😂

@sbarolo It’s sad you think any racism and hate is ok. That’s part of the problem. This will never ever end.

@pammystarr please go on, teach me about reverse racism

@pammystarr Someone wrote a whole article just for you: https://www.aclrc.com/myth-of-reverse-racism

Myth of Reverse Racism — Alberta Civil Liberties Research Centre

Alberta Civil Liberties Research Centre

@pammystarr Really curious what that favourite is about.

@robinshipton that really doesn’t have anything to do with me or what I was calling him out on. He is using something with a very long history to keep certain races “in their place,” but in this instance directing it at who was doing it back then. He sees people in races, not as people. It’s perpetuating racism. It keeps it alive and familiar in our speech. Clearly it did not occur to him to call out the person he had issue with.
And besides, he’s really a dick.

@pammystarr Let me rephrase your post and see if I’m not misreading you.

Are you saying that racism is in the past, and that people accusing white people of racism now is the only thing keeping it on life support?

That’s what it sounds like. Let me know if I’ve got that wrong.

@robinshipton no, not what I’m saying. Obviously racism is very alive and well and it thrives partly by thinking like that guy thinks and speaks. He shaming an entire race for something someone(s) did. I don’t care which race it is, it is very wrong no matter which race. And racists are validated.

I’m from Michigan originally where it’s extremely tribal and full of hate. I was pushing back as a kid in the 60s on this and I’m calling him out for it today.

People must see people as people.

@pammystarr I think you might wish to do some updating on the current state of anti-racism in theory and practice. What you’re describing is “colour blind” anti-racism. It turns out that it never worked as expected, and paradoxically perpetuated racism in a bunch of ways.

Nobody now doing anti-racism work tries to ignore the categories that racism constructs for people, because they haven’t been dismantled yet. And prematurely ignoring them does harm.

Do you want to hear more?

@pammystarr (Aside, shaming a whole race is not what Scott’s post did. That does sound like a 60s reading of it, but I can break it down into its today-reading if you like. The 60s view on race relations and anti-racism is 50-60 years out of date now, and as applicable now as 1900s ideas were in the 60s. Which is, not a lot.)

@robinshipton I’m not an academic, although I appreciate there are many theories and the work continues.
But I will never accept that hating on or shaming one race for what some of them do as acceptable. And he did do that.
In the end, however we get there, groups of people will not be the basis of some intensely complicated weird cast system like we have in this incarnation of civilization. It’s too bad I’ll be long gone by the time it happens for us.
Thanks for the chat.

@pammystarr
Appreciating that the work continues, and then citing the anti-racism equivalent of miasma theory, doesn’t sound like actual appreciation of just how far behind half a century is. The dismissal is pretty loud and clear.

But if you’re okay with becoming the problem today that your parents’ generation was in the 60s, what’s there to say.

Maybe: What would teenage-you say to this out-of-touch elder? Would she call out her complacent participation in modern racism, or not?

Darrin L Rogers Dec 14, 2022

@sbarolo "Mastodon is becoming known as the home of the smug mansplaining tone-policing reply"

I haven't had a lot of interaction here, but this is a bad thing. Hoping Mastodon (or at least some instances) can dodge some of the more toxic, unhelpful trends of birdsite as we grow.