Brian KungNov 20, 2022
Martin Fowler
A trans friend of mine said that after Twitter stopped banning trans harassment, it took only 12 hours before she started getting death threats. Do we have Free Speech if bullies are allowed to make people afraid to speak?
Nov 20, 2022 at 2:00pmWeb
Show threadChris PittsNov 20, 2022

@mfowler That is so sad, but not unexpected. Twitter is now a toxic brand, and I am actively distancing my own, small brand from it.

FWIW I posted this earlier today. It's the great paradox of tolerance, first(?) pointed out by the philosopher Karl Popper. A tolerant society **cannot** be tolerant of intolerance, else the intolerance will destroy tolerance.

Show threadYorgos SaslisNov 20, 2022
@thirstybear @mfowler …kind of like… “tolerate alike” ? 🤔 (Ref: to share alike of Creative Commons)
Show threadSam Sneddon 🏳️‍⚧️Nov 20, 2022
@mfowler those who defend free speech always tend to be the ones who think the hardest hitting ad hominem attacks are those calling you “stupid” rather than attacking your entire sense of self, which is frequently at threat of physical attack
Show threadBrittneyNov 20, 2022
@gsnedders @mfowler
Freedom to those people only means if they are able to do whatever they want and not be uncomfortable. They stand for nothing but selfishness and hate.
Show threadreinerNov 20, 2022
@mfowler I hope they get out of that toxic place and find a spot here or somewhere else where they can feel both safe and part of a community. Hate speech and threats of violence push the beyond the bounds of free speech that should be protected.
Show threadRuss OlsenNov 20, 2022
@mfowler No.
Show threadJakub BalharNov 20, 2022

@mfowler I would argue that no we don't. But it's a complex topic with nuance.

As a rule though ad hominem attacks are never ok and the same goes for threats.

Show threadRaul PortalesNov 20, 2022
@mfowler freedom of speech should not mean no consequences.
Sad to see how fast Twitter has degenerated. Not entirely unexpected. Unblocking trans haters will encourage other trans haters to speak louder.
Show threadMarcy Ericka C. ✨Nov 20, 2022
@mfowler as usual, free speech benefits only one side: bullies. And minorities cannot bear this on Twitter anymore, this phenomena has sadly increased within the past months. I hope Mastodon can be a better safe place for lgbt+ ppl… we do have insightful feedbacks in tech too and we surely not have to retain ourselves because of fear.
Thanks for highlighting this issue.
Show threadBarry Schwartz Nov 20, 2022
@mfowler No. But you knew that.
Show threadMarventhNov 20, 2022
@mfowler this is not Free Speech. When others bully someone out threat them in any other way it’s just violence and it has nothing to do with Free Speech.
Show threadh100gfldNov 20, 2022

@mfowler One finds out who likes to selectively bounce between a negative-rights and postitive-rights conception

(because either conception would tend to lead to "Twitter can/should ban trans harassment")

Show threadEl Bruno 🇨🇦 💙💜🎗️-Nov 20, 2022
@mfowler that´s so sad ☹️
Show threadIndependent JakeNov 20, 2022
@mfowler The concept of free speech was never my attraction to the bird site. If they want to go that route, fine. I prefer reasonable restrictions and controls. As a kid I sat in a history class which was constantly disrupted by unruly students throwing spitballs at the teacher. It was not conducive to learning or dicussions.
Rules must exist to help create an environment for the safe exchange of ideas. I think I'll be happier here.
Show threadDaisy Doo & TuxieGirl BettyNov 20, 2022
@mfowler No we do not
America is in as dark a place as she has EVER been.
Show threadAndy AmidonNov 20, 2022
@mfowler
This is what Musky doesn't understand about free speech. In the US anyway, 1st Amendment protects nearly all speech from government retaliation. It does not protect speech from social consequences. It does not prevent social platforms from having standards and terms of service. Nor does it prohibit such platforms from banning violators of said standards. I'm sorry for friend. Hopefully, she's safe here.
Show threadAndy WoottonNov 20, 2022
@mfowler if hateful people have absolute freedom of speech, those they hate may not have freedom to avoid hate speech. Liberty needs to be a 2-way thing or it favours people who don't deserve any favours.
Show threadNicklas Johnson 🏳️‍🌈Nov 20, 2022
@mfowler I feel like this is vaguely like an abstract example of Gödel's incompleteness theorem, such that the concept can be complete, or consistent, but it can never be both. Which is to say, if we try to take an absolutist stance on free speech, we end up with this inconsistency where some people are afraid to speak. If we want to cope with that inconsistency, we can't have an absolutist stance on free speech.
Show threadBritish Tech GuruNov 20, 2022
Trans is a touchy subject and I get bullied a lot for my thoughts on it. I don't hold with the answer always being surgery and gender role changing. Gender role IMHO is a societal construct that just needs to go away.
Show threadJason EdgecombeNov 20, 2022
@mfowler 😭 And that is why death threats are not protected speech in the U.S.
Show threadEviolatorNov 20, 2022
@mfowler Yes. The rest of the world doesn't practice free speech. Free speech is an excuse to protect hate speech. It's a fine idea. Bad practice.
Show threadBrentNov 20, 2022
@mfowler It doesn’t surprise me that a man raised by an apartheid government thinks threats are free speech. Maybe traditional law enforcement should get involved since Twitter won’t. A threat is illegal.
Show threadTom BresnahanNov 20, 2022
@mfowler 64 years has taught me that bullies typically misperceive motion or activity around them as proof they exist at the center of rotation of the universe.
Show threadJesse LibertyNov 20, 2022
@mfowler I used to believe that the answer to hate speech is more speech. I now think that is too simplistic given the dangerous effects of hate speech amplified by social media and incredibly irresponsible politicians. What I like about Mastodon is that the decision on what needs to be dealt with is distributed so people can choose the community they find comfortable.
Show threadPapaPKNov 20, 2022
@mfowler There is a massive difference between ’Free Speech’ and ‘Hate Speech’ and the 2 should never be confused. However, where as many countries in the world have evolved their laws to accommodate social media and stamp out hate speech, America has not. Relying on a series of amendments written over 232 years ago for managing the world we now live in is laughable. Law is meant to evolve. Some politicians seem not to have.
Show threadDave SwerskyNov 20, 2022

@mfowler Elmo's definition of "free speech" is "speech I agree with"

It won't matter in the long run- even if his gang of visa hostages can keep the lights on, the advertisers will bail and they'll get delisted from the app stores.

The birdsite is dead, long live the birdsite

Show threadWendy for Human Rights 🇨🇦Nov 20, 2022
@mfowler No, we don’t. They whine about being “cancelled” when they are rejected at venues, but think that it’s perfectly acceptable for them to bully everyone who argues with them. It’s one set of rules for the tyrants and a different set of rules for the rest of us.
Show threadspyinsideNov 21, 2022
@mfowler for me there's a miss understanding between freedom of speech and harassing. It's like saying there's no freedom of speech without consequences. Said like that sounds more like distort the "freedom of speech" meaning. I need to remember our heritage and learn something from there.
Show threadGrowth & ResilienceNov 21, 2022
@mfowler great question
Show threadDavid SeedNov 21, 2022
@mfowler nope. That’s creeping fascism.
Show threadThiago MassaNov 21, 2022
@mfowler "Free speech" should be over as soon as you start to offend or create a difficult situation for somebody else.