petersuberVery glad to see this:
Harvard Law School will stop participating in the U.S. News & World Report’s annual rankings.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2022/11/17/harvard-law-school-drops-out-of-us-news-rankings/
Update. Five major US law schools have now stopped participating in the US News World and World Report rankings:
#Yale, #Harvard, #Berkeley, #Columbia, and #Georgetown (apparently in this order).
Update. There may soon be a sixth.
The University of Pennsylvania’s Carey Law School told the Chronicle of Higher Education: “Penn Carey Law applauds Yale Law and Harvard Law for their leadership in raising key questions for all law schools by withdrawing from the U.S. News & World Report rankings. We are evaluating this issue and assessing a process for our own decision-making.”
https://www.chronicle.com/article/yale-and-harvards-law-schools-are-ditching-the-u-s-news-rankings-will-others-follow
Update. #Stanford Law School has also refused to take part in the US News and Word report #rankings.
https://law.stanford.edu/press/stanford-law-school-will-not-participate-in-us-news-law-school-ranking/
h/t @jeridansky
Update. The U of #Michigan Law School has now joined #Yale, #Harvard, #Berkeley, #Columbia, #Georgetown, and #Stanford in refusing to take part in the USNWR #rankings.
https://michigan.law.umich.edu/news/michigan-law-will-not-participate-us-news-rankings
https://michigan.law.umich.edu/news/michigan-law-will-not-participate-us-news-rankings
Update. Now add #Northwestern Pritzker School of Law.
https://news.law.northwestern.edu/us-news-rankings-participation/
That makes 8 major US law schools to date: #Yale, #Harvard, #Berkeley, #Columbia, #Georgetown, #Stanford, #Michigan, and #Northwestern. #Penn is still deliberating.
I'm esp glad to see Northwestern join this list. I got my JD there in 1982.
Northwestern Pritzker School of Law Will Not Participate in U.S. News Rankings - Northwestern Pritzker School of Law News
Earlier today, Northwestern Pritzker Law Dean Hari Osofsky shared the following message with the Northwestern Pritzker Law community: Dear Members of the Northwestern Pritzker Law Community, Northwestern Pritzker School of Law has decided not to participate in the U.S. News rankings because its approach does not align with our law school’s values. We remain committed…
Update. Now add #Duke Law School.
https://law.duke.edu/news/message-dean-abrams-regarding-withdrawal-us-news-rankings
That makes 9 major US law schools to date: #Yale, #Harvard, #Berkeley, #Columbia, #Georgetown, #Stanford, #Michigan, #Northwestern, and #Duke
Update. Now add the #UCIrvine School of Law.
https://www.law.uci.edu/news/in-the-news/2022/11-23-ucilaw-usnews-ranking.html
That makes 10 major US law schools that have stopped participating in the USNWR rankings: #Yale, #Harvard, #Berkeley, #Columbia, #Georgetown, #Stanford, #Michigan, #Northwestern, #Duke, and #UCIrvine.
Update. Now add the U of #Washington and the U of #Pennsylvania law schools.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/12/03/law-schools-protest-us-news-rankings/
That makes 12 major US law schools that have stopped participating in the USNWR rankings: #Yale, #Harvard, #Berkeley, #Columbia, #Georgetown, #Stanford, #Michigan, #Northwestern, #Duke, #UCIrvine, #Penn, and #UWashington.
Law school revolt against U.S. News rankings gains steam
Complaints from the law deans echo perennial criticisms of the U.S. News rankings. There is no sign yet that their revolt will spread to a more generalized boycott of U.S. News rankings of undergraduate and graduate programs.
Update. Now add the U of #Virginia and #NYU law schools.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/12/09/uva-law-school-us-news/
That makes 14 major US law schools that have stopped participating in the USNWR rankings: #Yale, #Harvard, #Berkeley, #Columbia, #Georgetown, #Stanford, #Michigan, #Northwestern, #Duke, #UCIrvine, #Penn, #UWashington, #Virginia, and #NYU.
U-Va. law school halts cooperation with U.S. News rankings
The University of Virginia’s law school suspended cooperation with the U.S. News and World Report rankings, a development that means nine of the top 10 schools on the influential list are now in open revolt against the way it is designed.
Update. I won't keep extending this thread indefinitely. But I do want to add that #HarvardMedicalSchool just joined #HarvardLawSchool in refusing to take part in the #USNWR #rankings.
The story from HMS itself
https://hms.harvard.edu/news/hms-withdraws-us-news-world-report-rankings
The story in the Harvard Crimson
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/1/18/harvard-medical-school-us-news/
The story in the Washington Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/01/17/harvard-medical-school-us-news-rankings-admissions/
Albert Cardona@petersuber So pleased to see major institutions stepping down from bullshit games. As if the DORA spirit was seeping in slowly.
avatar.x@petersuber the media is trash for the most part
Masto.poetryglad to see Penn on the list!
Walt Crawford@petersuber I wonder how that list compares to the top dozen law schools in the rankings. I'd guess at least half, probably more? (But IANAL...)
@waltcrawford
Most but not all of the top 10 have refused to participate in the rankings. (Chicago and Cornell are two that have said they will continue.) I'd have to look up the rankings to be more precise. But it's well over half.
Most but not all of the top 10 have refused to participate in the rankings. (Chicago and Cornell are two that have said they will continue.) I'd have to look up the rankings to be more precise. But it's well over half.
@petersuber Sigh. After I posted that reply I read through the article, and should already have known it was over half. So basically the rankings will be "100 of the not-quite-top law schools." Or USNWR will have the sense to drop the rankings.
kdnyhan@petersuber waiting for the first public health school to do the same things. Little different in that the USN&WR methodology for public health schools and programs doesn't include job placement rates or starting salaries, so in this discipline, grads committing to public service isn't a downward factor like in law.
@petersuber But it's still not very rigorous. It's a survey sent to the dean of every school and director of every program accredited by CEPH. They can rate the "academic quality" of the schools and programs 1-5 or don't know, and the ratings are averaged.
The response rate was 34.1% last time. No idea how close or far the average score for, say, the 20th school is from the 1st place school.
The response rate was 34.1% last time. No idea how close or far the average score for, say, the 20th school is from the 1st place school.
@petersuber incidentally, there are big differences in the response rates for the USN&WR peer assessment surveys in different disciplines, from 18% of doctoral programs in clinical psychology to 66% of health care management programs accredited by the Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Management Education. I wonder what drives these participation rates?
Aaron Tay@petersuber fascinating. Are University rejection of rankings rare?
@aarontay I really don't know. I expect a good "overview" article any day now putting the recent rejections in perspective. But I can say that I've been following higher-ed news for 50 years and don't recall a rash of rejections like this one.
Vance Ricks@petersuber Are there reasons for just the law schools to drop out of the ranking system(s), rather than for the universities overall to do that?
@ricksva I don't know but here are 2 thoughts. 1st the unit must have enough autonomy. Schools do, depts don't. 2d it must have a sufficiently thin bureaucracy. Some whole unis are probably considering this move but find they need the input & approval of too many people. Schools are at the intersection of 2 curves — large enough to have the autonomy, small enough to have the flexibility.
But we're not yet seeing this from med schools etc. So like you, I'm still looking for a fuller explanation.
@petersuber Thanks! I'm now also wondering -- only partly facetiously -- what they see as other implications for the other ranking practices they participate in and prop up. No more courses graded on curves? No more rankings of students by cumulative GPAs?
Jere@petersuber With this divestment at the top, will the lower ranked schools just be happy to climb 8 spots or will the still-ranked place an asterisk by their names? How will this shake out down list?
@jaireeo We don't know yet. Last year USNWR essentially disregarded data submitted by Columbia (the university, not just the law school), when Columbia owned up to inaccuracies in the data. But USNWR ranked Columbia anyway, pulling data from public sources. Hence, USNWR *could* do the same next year with all these law schools. On the other hand, it took a lot of heat for doing the job badly and may not want to repeat that experience.
More on the Columbia case:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/12/us/columbia-university-us-news-ranking.html
U.S. News Dropped Columbia’s Ranking, but Its Own Methods Are Now Questioned
After doubt about its data, the university dropped to No. 18 from No. 2. But now many are asking, can the rating system be that easily manipulated?
Stephen Eglen@petersuber how is this playing out? Are these all the top law schools dropping out now, and then as other schools reach the top, they also drop out?
and apologies, I'm not aware of the context of US News, but is this a specific snub against that magazine? Or could it be a wider point about the futility of rankings?
MrShoggoth@petersuber - “Dropped out.” Refused to be a part of, or aren’t that good? (Or both?)
Wanda@petersuber @MrShoggoth
The law schools left by choice. Yale left first followed by Harvard and then others.
The law schools left by choice. Yale left first followed by Harvard and then others.
Ted Spence@petersuber I read up on the story - do we believe this is about treating poor applicants fairly in the rankings? Is this just a case where applying metrics to something haphazardly was worse than not having metrics at all?
It would be nice to know if a school leaves people in debt to get their education; but if measuring that artificially is just a measurement of inherited poverty I agree with their choice to leave the ratings system.
Bathsheba Blueinformation about student debt, job placement, graduation rates etc should still be available by the schools. The ranking surveys were not the chief reason for collecting these data points.
Rosanita@inklings @Tedspence @petersuber Isn’t that reported to the US Dept of Education? It’s still a dataset.
@rosanita @Tedspence @petersuber
Yes that’s my meaning. The ranking surveys aren’t needed in order to have provide helpful metrics. In fact it’s probably less bc the idea you can reduce everything to one simple ranking is problematic in itself.
Yes that’s my meaning. The ranking surveys aren’t needed in order to have provide helpful metrics. In fact it’s probably less bc the idea you can reduce everything to one simple ranking is problematic in itself.
ItsAllBeenDecided@petersuber With their representation in Congress, I don't blame them for "dropping out".
Jonathan Hochberg@petersuber This is awesome. Now have they waived tuition and fees for students from low-income families? Structural elitism will require a but more unpacking.
legraLeGra@petersuber Was there an equity reasoning? Because my (unsubstantiated) feeling was that this weighed heavy on the admin’s minds. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/16/columbia-whistleblower-us-news-rankings-michael-thaddeus
reversion to the deoradh™@petersuber nicely played
@petersuber I never understood why a for-profit news magazine should become the arbiter of college quality. What are some more objective sources of ranking information?
Aaron Ghirardelli@petersuber @equilibria same. I have always never understood how nobody else tried to introduce a much better and transparent ranking. I am intrigued by how US News will respond to this. They may still rank those law schools using publicly available data.
@botolo86 @petersuber @equilibria USNWR almost certainly will continue to rank those law schools, although probably lower and with an asterisk. All of these schools can get away with that, though.
@petersuber Can we now rank them by the order in which they stop participating?
brickbat@petersuber They have enough legacy material ratings are of no use anyway.
Hal Brown@petersuber Interesting. Here's an article from The Guardian about it. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/17/yale-harvard-law-school-us-news-world-report-rankings
Dean Barnett@petersuber In my working life one of my duties was to analyze US News' hospital rankings. Their methodology was consistently sketchy, altho to their credit, sketchy in new ways every time.
Marya@petersuber Wow! I work at a university and we do great in these rankings. That said, recently listened to podcast discussing limitations/hindrances with the criteria - interesting to see how this plays out as schools opt out.
SFborn1940
Jeri Dansky@petersuber Also Stanford, it seems: https://sfba.social/@PatentScholar@econtwitter.net/109367764588917286
Lisa Larrimore Ouellette (@[email protected])
Our #StanfordLaw dean just announced that we're joining the other law schools withdrawing from the US News ranking
Robert S@petersuber I didn't quite understand why this was a big deal. But the show I work on did this segment, which helped a lot:
Yale and Harvard Law Pull Out of U.S. News Rankings; Will Others Follow Suit? | Amanpour and Company
@syncretist
Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen this good interview.
Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen this good interview.
@petersuber sure thing! I followed up on your home page, and tried to d/l "knowledge unbound" as an epub or mobi, and those links are goofed atm fyi. May want to notify relevant parties - seems to be the dropbox hosted ones that are problematic.
@syncretist Thanks for letting me know! I'll try to get updated URLs from @themitpress.
Meantime you can find an #openaccess edition of the full book here (chapter by chapter HTML and PDF).
https://direct.mit.edu/books/book/4045/Knowledge-UnboundSelected-Writings-on-Open-Access
@petersuber thanks - i picked it up at archive.org, looking forward to reading it.