I wonder if this place will allow an actual chill discussion about Just Stop Oil? I am in favour of them simply because all of history shows that big movements for change have two wings - an extreme disruptive one, and a more moderate one. And you need both. And they are still causing less disruption than floods, wildfires and extreme heat.

@mscaitlinmoran I'm always a bit torn on them, because some of their protests seem a little misguided - although they are trying to get attention on the climate crisis and in that, they're succeeding.

Either way, regardless of our individual opinions on the matter, they will be on the right side of history.

@dane @mscaitlinmoran Frustrating disruption for so many, but if nothing is disrupted things can be ignored. All big changes come from people speaking up, getting in the way, making a nuisance of themselves, and we are killing this beautiful planet that we live on. Can see how much chaos their protests are causing, but hope the benefit will come.
@mscaitlinmoran I agree with their aims but not the way they are doing it. Definetley peeing off an awful lot of ordinary working people out there losing sympathy for their cause.Blocking Motorways also causes more air pollution with all the extra traffic chaos & cars idling.
@mscaitlinmoran totally agree. If they don't cause disruption, how does anyone hear the bell tolling? it certainly doesn't appear as headline news otherwise...
In addition I think we need new mainstream media...a philanthropist prepared to fund a major newspaper who is not a non-dob or Roy family style nightmare

@mscaitlinmoran That’s such a good point, about the need for two wings — disruptive and moderate. It’s been there in so many past movements, and I kind of knew without realising.

I’ve changed my view on Just Stop Oil these past few days. I’d kind of dismissed it as entitled middle-class kids having a brief moment of activism, as if it were a gap year trip to Chile. But I actually don’t think that’s it. I think it’s sparked by genuine frustration at the blanket refusal of those in power to properly engage with what is clearly a gigantic crisis. "You will only pay attention if I irritate everyone in a 20 mile radius."

If it brings those in power to a meeting with the moderate side of the campaign, it strikes me as A Good Thing. But not throwing soup at paintings. I’m not jumping on that boat.

@paulosbourne @mscaitlinmoran
The painting is behind glass: there was no risk of damaging it.
That's not to suggest it was a sensible protest, but not nearly as daft as it seems if that fact is not known.
@mscaitlinmoran
You SO need both wings.
Not sure what paint on a Van Gogh achieves but you’ve surely got to ruffle a few feathers.
And the passion/desperation of that young woman on the M25 gantry on Monday was something to behold.
#JustStopOil

@mscaitlinmoran always interesting to see that those who protest about the protesters essentially give away that really they just don’t like protests of any sort ever.

If it’s “Swampy” and his mates protesting nuclear weapons, well they should have a bath and get a job.
The unemployed, obviously get a job instead.
Kids protesting anything should just “get back to school”
Middle class protestors, they’re just “champagne socialists” or similar.

@mscaitlinmoran I think of how we remember Suffragettes, civil rights activists and abolitionists.

I’m no machiavellian, but unless they’re endangering life*, good luck to them.

*I know, I know. Everybody on the M25 yesterday was taking their great great granny for a chemotherapy appointment.

@mscaitlinmoran Having grown up in Bath in the 90s, I'm used to my protesters living in trees and not showering for a year. The JSO kids are so amazingly well-spoken and clean-cut, it's very jarring - but they're doing similar stuff to Insulate Britain, and those guys turned out to be rather accurate in their claims...
@mscaitlinmoran ducks crossing the street cause more disruption.
@mscaitlinmoran for me they they are right, and the reason why they gain so much bad press from relatively minor action is that vested interests know this (or gain from firing up the latest division)
Look at parallels of the Suffragettes. With historical perspective I doubt anyone now would say they were on the wrong side, but they committed far more direct action.
Any movement against a better funded status quo will and has to cause disruption, but you need the long view to justify it
@mscaitlinmoran
I am not in favour of the "Just Stop Oil" actions as we live in a democracy with universal suffrage where the way to change public policy is through the ballot box, at local and national level.
The suffragettes did not have a political solution open to them and fought for us to have that right so that no one else had to cause chaos to make a political point.
#ukpolitics #juststopoil
@RuthS @mscaitlinmoran and the “at the ballot box” approach is fine…if there are options at the ballot box that are offering to deal with the issue at hand and also assumes that the ballot box process works well enough. See for example completely wasted votes due to our clunky and old fashioned voting system.
@Toffer @mscaitlinmoran
Then "Just Stop Oil" should be influencing the main political parties to adopt their policy proposals, or start their own political party.
Our democracy may be clunky and old fashioned but it works.
If your policy proposals are a vote winner the main parties will adopt them.
If your policy proposals are not a vote winner then you need to persuade voters to support you.
Stopping the M25 may draw public attention but wont persuade voters to support you.

@RuthS @Toffer @mscaitlinmoran

Does our democracy work? Our government is elected by less than 50% of the electorate. Our unelected PM appears more interested in representing big business than ordinary people. The last unelected PM came within hours of crashing the UK financial system. The FPTP voting system effectively disenfranchises millions of voters in “safe” seats. If our democracy really worked then JSO protests wouldn’t be needed.

@Toffer @RuthS @mscaitlinmoran this is a good point polls tend to show greater investment in green energy and de-investment in fossil fuels runs about 70% yet the Tories carry on with the opposite.
Having said that I do hope all these Just Stop Oil protesters do get behind Labours environmental reforms when the campaigning for the 2024/5 GE.
@RuthS @mscaitlinmoran We're just supposed to sit on our hands for two years, then? Don't think so, sorry.
@fishidwardrobe @mscaitlinmoran
use those two years to develop your political campaign. Either launch your own party or influence the main steam parties to adopt your policy proposals.
We have a democracy and a political system to set government policy. Use it or lose it !

@RuthS @mscaitlinmoran "launch my own party" – I'm sorry, even if that would work -- and have you seen any effective new parties in the last 100 years? -- with what money?

This is a ridiculous conversation. Protest has always been a legitimate part of democracy. I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable. But in order for things to change for the better, a lot of people will have to be uncomfortable.

'Bye. muting you now. Good luck.

@RuthS @mscaitlinmoran
We live in a very feeble and damaged version of democracy where overwhelmingly popular policies are ignored by the major parties
Look at nationalisation of power, popular even with a majority of conservative voters, yet neither party will even discuss it
A choice between two or three parties with the same unrepresentative policies is little more than a one party state

@mscaitlinmoran I would counter with: Aren't the disruptive wings there to highlight the problem and the moderate side to suggest and press for solutions to it?

With an issue that's already known about - what does the disruptive side achieve?

@mscaitlinmoran fully respect your views and I’m with you that something needs to be done. But I believe in the ballot box and not stopping traffic including emergency vehicles/carers/anxious drivers/those in dire need to see a loved one before they pass away/emergency workers going to/from shift……
I really agree with you that something needs to be done and rallying folk is an excellent way of showing the will of the people….I just don’t think this type of protest is the way to help 👍👍🖖🖖✌️✌️❤️
@mscaitlinmoran Governments have had 30+ years to take the issue seriously and have largely ignored it. These protests are non-violent and, to be honest, the actual disruption is moderate.
The action is however getting the protagonists airtime to make their case and from what I have seen they are making their case very well.
@mscaitlinmoran I agree. Won't get far without protests as it's the only thing that gets noticed. Shame I'm far too old to climb gantrys over motorways.
@mscaitlinmoran I support them - I know it’s frustrating for drivers, and i do not drive but having encountered many people who are anti low-traffic-neighbourhoods - some drivers seem to think that absolutely nothing should impede them.
@mscaitlinmoran I believe in their cause, maybe not all their methods but then they ARE getting noticed. Sometimes extreme situations need extreme measures.
@mscaitlinmoran I’m voting extinction as more disruptive than a tailback on the M25.
@mscaitlinmoran I think it’s much like a rail or nurses strike - we’ve reached the point where drastic action is needed in order to get those in positions of power to pay attention and do something. Which normally means inconveniencing people somehow - because all other methods have failed and so this is what’s left. It’s not ideal, but the fact that we’re still nowhere near making the changes we need to avert climate crisis suggests that we need direct action at this stage.

@mscaitlinmoran Most peoples opinion seems to be that they agree with what what they have to say just not how they go about it.

They’re keeping the issue in the public domain and forcing people to say “I agree we need to reduce fossil fuel but…”

@mscaitlinmoran I understand people who say it's counterproductive, but what's the alternative? If you protest politely the media ignores you
@mscaitlinmoran That would be nice wouldn't it? I've just been enjoying the peace and quiet on here so far, and have not once felt angry
@mscaitlinmoran I agree with you. I see the arguments elsewhere here that they should focus on influencing through the ballot box. If only! Our current system of representation (FPTP, erosion of MP voices/independence of thought by continual whipping of votes, private financing of parties etc) is no longer fit for purpose IMHO. However, I think the JSO communication style on broadcast media is often more impassioned than impactful and risks wasting the exposure they are generating.
@mscaitlinmoran I missed a train to see my elderly mother after being stuck in their disruption and I was temporarily very angry. But am much angrier at the unchecked devastation to the planet… So good for them. Also, I was at school with a woman who now dresses up as Mother Earth and joins protests. And she was awesome cool. So… go them!! (Whilst grrrrr I missed my train)
@mscaitlinmoran What I find interesting is that women's suffrage used similar tactics 100 years ago, for example taking a knife to the Rokeby Venus - wonder if it was inspiration for the Van Gogh attack? Having said that, universal suffrage had a clear goal, not sure what Stop Oil's mission or goal is...
@mscaitlinmoran Having said that, I did know someone involved in Extinction Rebellion, she was extremely wealthy, drove a gas guzzler and took many international flights, kind of wonder if there's the same type of activists involved.

@mscaitlinmoran If you had to choose between saving, say, "Mona Lisa," or the life of a random child that you would never know on the other side of the world, which would you choose?

This is something like the real choice we're faced with and I think they're brilliant for pointing that out. We revere the wrong things. I wouldn't expect people to be comfortable with it. And I think a lot of people are missing the point on purpose. So I celebrate them.

@mscaitlinmoran
The reason for the fascist media and government coming down so hard on a few protesters about oil is to make absolutely sure it doesn't become a large cultural movement!
Considering how much the tories are pushing oil it's no surprise!
@mscaitlinmoran I'm hoping they will be able to maintain the media's interest but by now switching tactics to target decision makers. I don't know how else they could have generated so much publicity but now they have our attention they need to be inventive and focus that attention and anger at those who have a chance of mitigating against further climate damage.
@mscaitlinmoran I agree with #JustStopOil at least until UK houses have been insulated #InsulateUK also ultimate respect for #ExtinctionRebellion - There I said it!
@mscaitlinmoran
I agree, they are heroes. Our future depends on folk willing and able to shout out and make folk take notice. We all need to use hashtags so others see this plus make our posts public. Click on the globe below and choose public.
#StopOil #EffectiveProtest #ClimateCrisis

@mscaitlinmoran
I agree. It's healthy in a society to have, and to tolerate, people who go further than others, beyond what you yourself might do. If we are to understand, and maintain the boundaries of what is permissible, it's necessary that some people should be always testing those boundaries.

The alternative is that the range of things that are permitted shrinks and shrinks. In the UK right now, this is already happening and it scares me.

@mscaitlinmoran
"This place" will allow almost anything reasonable, but if in doubt, put it behind a content warning.
My opinion on the point is that this kind of thing does not need to be behind a CW, but I don't have a casting vote and I think we're all on a learning curve, even the pachyderms themselves...