Taylor LorenzPeople are saying I want to bring "clout chasing" and "toxicity" to Mastodon bc I said it should add quote posts. Not true! Let me explain my thinking 1/
In my opinion, quote tweets don't lead to harassment any more than replies lead to harassment or tagging leads to harassment. The feature was born out of organic user behavior and users manually typing "RT" in front of stuff they were quote tweeting in order to share. Not having native QTs and forcing people to manually type "RT" with the text they were quote tweeting led to confusion and misinformation spreading as ppl would often alter the manual RT text! 2/
In my experience, people are far more likely to harass in the replies than in the quote posts bc quote posts posts to their own timeline. And regardless, I think having a native way to amplify and comment or add to content on a platform is really important. This is why TikTok has the Stitch and Duet function. 3/
Even on Tumblr, the Reblog feature includes the original post. Do Tumblr reblogs lead to harassment? No!! This is natural user behavior and makes the sharing of ideas, information, commentary, etc easier. It's what users will do anyway whether or not you facilitate it. By refusing to acknowledge this and making it harder for ppl however, the platform will be less useful and re-shared information will be less reliable 4/
Liz LynchI think if people want Mastodon to be a place where news media thrives, where ppl can openly and freely exchange ideas, amplify content etc we need a quote post/Tumblr reblog-like function. The way to curb harassment isn't to refuse key features imo, it's to give more control. For ex, giving users the ability to turn quote posts on/off, etc. And I just want to reiterate again that this is all simply my own personal perspective! I know many disagree and that's fine :D 5/
Amanda Moore>>if people want Mastodon to be a place where news media thrives
I wish I had not deleted my tweets about the Twitter/Masto culture clash that is inevitable. It's unclear to me if people realize how hostile some stuff here is to non-legacy journos and creators. If they dont want us here, that's fine, but if they do -- gotta have tools to use this for work, bc any public account of a public figure probably isn't for fun.
@noturtlesoup17 totally!!!
Bernd Porr@noturtlesoup17 @taylorlorenz I just did the mistake to reply to one of these people who were instantly protective of not having a re-toot function. 30mins later it always ends up in "Oh, that's not twitter, bro!" It needs to be constructive and not just antagonistic against twitter. I do science and pro-EU activism and the re-tweet/toots are essential here as well.
piccolbo@noturtlesoup17 @taylorlorenz Talking about culture clash, when Paul Krugman joined mastodon, somebody replied on his first post that on the fediverse (the whole thing) it's considered good fediquette to content-warning all political posts because some people are upset by politics. I am upset by cat pictures, I wouldn't dare of asking people to CW their cats.
ThePolybiusPress@taylorlorenz I actually like the idea of users being able to turn off features like quote posts etc.
flexghost.@ThePolybiusPress @taylorlorenz I like the idea if quote toots are turned off, expect for everyone and also for all time.
Annemarie Perez@taylorlorenz I think quote tweets taken out of context make it a useful feature with too big a downside. I’m happy to see how digital communities on this platform work before trying to change it in to Twitter. I was a very early adopter of Twitter — I watched it change for the worse. This space is interesting in its own right.
Adam Gonnerman@taylorlorenz I'm less concerned about it if, as you also suggest, I could turn off the feature to protect my posts from it.
Nicd 
@awgonnerman @taylorlorenz I'm not sure that is technically feasible. Someone can already write a server that can quote-boost, it would be possible to write a server that disregards your preference and allows it anyway.
@nicd @taylorlorenz then I don't want quote boost to be allowed.
Thanks for clarifying the functionality.
Lukas Neville@taylorlorenz the problem with opt out QTs is that the victims of QT brigading won't always know in advance that their little tweet is going to get brigaded. we don't know we need to change the default until we're confronted with a negative experience
the problem with opt in QTs is that there's no real incentive to change the default, since the value of this feature tends to be for the quoter, not the quoted
I get that it's part of what made twitter good:
Someone posts about subject X.
You add a comment connecting it to your area of Y.
Your audience, mostly there for Y, learns something novel and interesting about X.
It's a tool for transfer of knowledge between disciplines, audiences, and subcultures that would normally be siloed.
But I also get why it's hard or perhaps impossible to enable this benefit without also enabling brigading
Solarbird 
@lukasneville I think if it's an account-setup question that might be visible enough. (And of course it should be settable later as well.)
Ross S 
Gorn@taylorlorenz well than just "boost" the toot and add a comment
Jackson@taylorlorenz I think there is some truth to replies being what both parties put in but also the platform can influence the tone. Perhaps half of Mastodon will be the platform itself curbing it and another half the user. I’ll have to readjust my expectations but perhaps people like me are ready for smaller communities instead of the giant sea that is Twitter. Regardless I applaud anyone who gives Mastodon a shot to any degree.
TeixiI understand such critique, and thus has been expressed by peers objective of abuse via QT.
Here you can read the discussion on QT opened in 2020:
https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/12753
ps: Part of the learning process is that `copy link to post` & paste into the publish form —kind of equivalent.
saywhatThe only way a QT is any more a tool of harassment and bullying than just linking is due to it notifying the person being quoted, which can easily just be coded to not happen.
If it makes it too easy to amplify bad takes why is offsite embedding made so easy, is there a discussion where people decided that was somehow better than QT?
(((Baslow)))@taylorlorenz
People have been openly and freely exchanging ideas on Mastodon since I arrived here.
The Fediverse was *not* built to "amplify content".
I don't feel you have understood the extent to which your observations are seen as distorted and antithetical to the goals with which the fediverse was erected.
You're not in Kansas anymore,
People have been openly and freely exchanging ideas on Mastodon since I arrived here.
The Fediverse was *not* built to "amplify content".
I don't feel you have understood the extent to which your observations are seen as distorted and antithetical to the goals with which the fediverse was erected.
You're not in Kansas anymore,
Aron Fischer@baslow
boost == amplify
Specifically that is the purpose of the boost. A socially mediated republishing cascade.
@taylorlorenz
boost == amplify
Specifically that is the purpose of the boost. A socially mediated republishing cascade.
@taylorlorenz
Thornbill9@baslow @taylorlorenz I’m a small account. I’m a hobbyist with no professional purpose of being on here. The issue isn’t about entitlement to an audience rather than ability to learn from a global array of experts, academics and journalists who are not fully reflected on msm sources. The mastadonian perspective of twitter is not unlike Musk’s, focused on the status blue check race whereas I’m focused on its ability to be a news engine for non mainstream perspectives on news
@taylorlorenz
I've been on Mastodon for over three years. People didn't express much desire for Mastodon to be a place "where news media thrives", although they bemoaned the fact that news media didn't reflect the reality that it offered a very different model of social media....
I've been on Mastodon for over three years. People didn't express much desire for Mastodon to be a place "where news media thrives", although they bemoaned the fact that news media didn't reflect the reality that it offered a very different model of social media....
@baslow
who does mastodon belong to?
I trust that you are not asking that question seriously but rather as an ironic commentary on the lack of knowledge some people have brought to Mastodon...
@baslow
@taylorlorenz
No, I meant that ultimately these decisions (is this meant as a space for news media?) are up to the current members, not the original OGs.
The mere fact that people didn't express that desire before does not invalidate it now.
Especially after such a massive influx.
If you've been here longer, this can feel like an invasion of your space. I've been through such transitions before too.
But at the end of the day, it is an open network and thus norms must be able to change.
@taylorlorenz
No, I meant that ultimately these decisions (is this meant as a space for news media?) are up to the current members, not the original OGs.
The mere fact that people didn't express that desire before does not invalidate it now.
Especially after such a massive influx.
If you've been here longer, this can feel like an invasion of your space. I've been through such transitions before too.
But at the end of the day, it is an open network and thus norms must be able to change.
@cobordism @taylorlorenz
Sure. My argument is with the *presumption* that people want what Lorenz seem to claim they want. My point is that there were a lot of people who were happy with Mastodon the way it functioned and that she has not made a deep enough case as to why people should value something different.
She's calling for a bunch of technical changes that will require her to enlist help from the people who built this thing.
Sure. My argument is with the *presumption* that people want what Lorenz seem to claim they want. My point is that there were a lot of people who were happy with Mastodon the way it functioned and that she has not made a deep enough case as to why people should value something different.
She's calling for a bunch of technical changes that will require her to enlist help from the people who built this thing.
@baslow
I agree. Except that she can also implement the changes with other people :)
Indeed I'd welcome experimentation with ActivityPub servers.
The great thing about everyone moving to open source world is we no longer need to request features and depend on silicon valley to implement them.
And we don't depend on mastodon GmbH either.
We can all just do it ourselves. No permission required.
@cobordism You might want to ask @taylorlorenz whether she feels even remotely as if "she can also implement the changes with other people". She's also free to form her own spacefaring company but I doubt that she has the wherewithal, so it is a very abstract, theoretical sense of the word "can". In effect, I believe she is asking a lot of anonymous other people to implement the changes she is suggesting. She'll have to persuade them.
@baslow
Example: I have already consulted with a team to implement a mastodon server that stores its data in the ethswarm p2p network.
I can't do that myself - I don't code - but I also don't expect mastodon OGs to ever even consider doing this (judging by the hostility I have encountered here over any hint of "crypto" (blockchain) systems.)
But I don't need to beg for it and I don't need to ask permission either.
Same goes for quoting. Anyone is free to implement it.
@taylorlorenz
Example: I have already consulted with a team to implement a mastodon server that stores its data in the ethswarm p2p network.
I can't do that myself - I don't code - but I also don't expect mastodon OGs to ever even consider doing this (judging by the hostility I have encountered here over any hint of "crypto" (blockchain) systems.)
But I don't need to beg for it and I don't need to ask permission either.
Same goes for quoting. Anyone is free to implement it.
@taylorlorenz
@cobordism @taylorlorenz
True, but you may find that many of the people who have set up Mastodon sites before you refuse to call your new site "Mastodon". You will have forked something new, something no longer "Mastodon". You are absolutely free to do so but you may find yourself needing to call it something else.
The question of "owning" mastodon is irrelevant; it's a question of what people think Mastodon *is*.
True, but you may find that many of the people who have set up Mastodon sites before you refuse to call your new site "Mastodon". You will have forked something new, something no longer "Mastodon". You are absolutely free to do so but you may find yourself needing to call it something else.
The question of "owning" mastodon is irrelevant; it's a question of what people think Mastodon *is*.
@baslow
It was purely my instance's 500 character limit that precluded me from using the more accurate phrase of "an ActivityPub server forked from the Mastodon codebase".
It was purely my instance's 500 character limit that precluded me from using the more accurate phrase of "an ActivityPub server forked from the Mastodon codebase".
@cobordism
Well, okay, but you opened with the question "Who owns mastodon?", leaving you plenty of characters left to use ...
Well, okay, but you opened with the question "Who owns mastodon?", leaving you plenty of characters left to use ...
@taylorlorenz QT retweet has many problems itself. For example it splits discussion about the original message to two separate threads.
Dieu@gorn @taylorlorenz that's a possibility, but I often also used them to discuss a different topic that was in some way related to that of the quoted tweet.
I also often used them for sarcastic comments, though, and am quite happy with not being tempted to do so here.
@hllizi @taylorlorenz I feel that it is also used to steal audience by "stronger" accounts
Brad Ganley@taylorlorenz I think that there is a very important context role that QTs play and, when it was small, mastodon benefitted from limiting that specific type of interaction. Now that conversations can and do become hulking behemoth hellthreads, I think it’s time to consider, if not a 1:1 feature implementation, at least SOMETHING that allows posters to point specifically to the exact context in which they are speaking.
I have a misskey instance running and it has the feature baked into it. Implementation is clearly not the issue so I think approaching it from the perspective of “how can we implement this in a human way?” Is the correct move as opposed to “this feature made bad things happen so it lacks value”
I have a misskey instance running and it has the feature baked into it. Implementation is clearly not the issue so I think approaching it from the perspective of “how can we implement this in a human way?” Is the correct move as opposed to “this feature made bad things happen so it lacks value”
@taylorlorenz The lack of quote posting is really aggravating. I think the ability to turn it off is one good option, and I think the ideal thing is that if you block someone, any quotes no longer point back to you, so you can remove specific quote tweets that are causing you to be targeted.
Dave Winer ☕️@taylorlorenz — I agree.
Michael Downey 🧢@davew If only blogs existed.
Music is the Answer@JasonHindle I know, right? Imagine if people had their own personal space to publish long form commentary (vs conversations in micro format) and critique sources all day long, and if there was some type of system (fairly simple) to syndicate it for all who wanted to receive those broadcasts.
Daniel Probst@taylorlorenz For me, the lack of a thriving news media is what I really like about the platform. We have of course different opinions on this, but if I want news, I go to my news website(s) of choice where they don't come loaded with bias-inducing additions (who shares it, what they think about it, etc).
cūrāveram 🇺🇦 ☸︎ 🇦🇲 🕎🇬🇷@taylorlorenz wholeheartedly agree, the ability to quote replies is a vital function to allow sensible and rational discussions to take place.
I should add:
threading helps review of discussions
an effective quoting option should help reduce misunderstandings
discussion facilitation is another way forward though traditional news media already does this well
I hope these thoughts help rather than hinder.
:)
Eric 
@taylorlorenz Same with a search function, make it optional if you want your post searchable.
John Economou@taylorlorenz I thought there were workarounds
Adam Cook> For ex, giving users the ability to turn quote posts on/off, etc.
This seems sensible at this stage and it "defaulting to giving users more control" seems like it fits well with the Mastodon goals and culture... near as I can tell.
Davide Girlando@taylorlorenz As someone with almost zero following on Twitter, the one time I felt somewhat unsafe was because someone QTed in a hostile tone my reply to a bigger account (I was criticizing the Italian national soccer team for not speaking up on racism during Euro 2020).
I know you get harassed more than most for your reporting. However someone with a smaller following may be less prepared for that and may be discouraged from participating in the community.
I know you get harassed more than most for your reporting. However someone with a smaller following may be less prepared for that and may be discouraged from participating in the community.
🇺🇦 Maksim Lin 💙@taylorlorenz 💯 agree. And not only is it a silly idea, but it's also a pointless one in a open source, distributed network, all that's going to happen is that someone (maybe even me) will add the feature either in a fork on an existing client app or a completely new one.
Jeroen Baert@taylorlorenz let's start by having some news media host their own instances and verify their reporters
realcaseyrollins ✝️Haven’t they literally already started doing this though?
@realcaseyrollins @taylorlorenz looking for some good examples then!
Journa.host and Newsie.social are the two biggest ones, IIRC
@realcaseyrollins @taylorlorenz no, i mean like the NYT hosting their own instance
I see.
We’re a ways from that; we should probably wait for the majority of journalists to join the #Fediverse first–or for #Twitter to die.
@taylorlorenz “if people want Mastodon to be a place where new media thrives” should maybe be put to a vote. Mine would be no thanks, inherently leads to toxicity imho.
Heather 🎶🎸@JasonHindle Totally agree. We don't need the things that made Twitter a toxic place to be replicated here.
@dartmouth_diva Mastodon experience so far: loving the no ads, no promoted posts and likes, no algorithm, straight chronological feed, no swinging dick quote posts, thoughtful use of CW’s, thoughtful text entry suggestion for pic uploads for visually impaired, and more letters available for when you need it!
Robert Cruickshank@taylorlorenz I fully agree with this
Hamel 🏳️🌈@taylorlorenz I love the idea of being able to block quotes but still allowing them