Herohans
Jerry LevineEntirely possible that based on @pluralistic’s posts that I’m going to get a @framework / Framework Computer (https://frame.work/ )to teach my 9yo how to build a laptop and make his own (I think we’ll stick with Windows over Linux, though, if that’s okay).
once was@jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework Finally. I love this. I have done more than most people on laptops - replacing HDD and ram and screens, n wireless cards. I run old software cuz I'm poor and honestly hate the newest versions - no macs in this house - of windows. I might get one someday, but I already have two laptops and a desktop rig that I built. so I'm good for now
The Nerdy Mel@onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework
Repair is a radical act! Keep keeping those old laptops out of the trash heap!
Also, as another laptop fixer who sometimes pays their bills by being willing to be more patient with a mac than a lot of mac people (and some non-mac engineers, lol), keep keeping them out. The new m2s are basically just ipads and the coming repair cycle is going to be sad when orgs have to toss a near-brand-new machine for the first time.
@TheNerdyMel @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework
yes the planned obsolesce is horrible. I don't do mac or any apple products because I see it as a less ethical company than a lot of the other smaller co. also I hate wasting money on style. nope give me substance.
yes the planned obsolesce is horrible. I don't do mac or any apple products because I see it as a less ethical company than a lot of the other smaller co. also I hate wasting money on style. nope give me substance.
@onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework
Mac is still so weirdly ubiquitous for art people. There are art folks who agree with you, but feel trapped because this is the ecosystem they understand.
So, I take a lot of pride and pleasure in being able to extend the life of donated macs and iPads for an art center. And sometimes I get to make a little money when a design company can't afford to just buy new macs to make everything work faster this time.
@TheNerdyMel @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework
I think its because in the late 80s the only machines that could run programs like Photoshop I were MACs Adobe took a few years to publish for PC Microsoft. By then all the graphic designers and Art schools had heavily invested in MACs and it was the norm so it stuck. I worked on PHotoshop I on Macs back in the late 80s is how I know this.
I think its because in the late 80s the only machines that could run programs like Photoshop I were MACs Adobe took a few years to publish for PC Microsoft. By then all the graphic designers and Art schools had heavily invested in MACs and it was the norm so it stuck. I worked on PHotoshop I on Macs back in the late 80s is how I know this.
@onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework
Agreed. People think about Adobe and Mac as going hand in hand, even though that was such a short time. And they've had several fights since then (think Flash). And it's been forever since Apple made a good computer for video/animation users.
My other half was on the bleeding edge of PC-Photoshop use in high school and college. We got side-eye for running AE on a PC in 2010. We were like, let me show you how I spent $3K to build a $17K mac.
mackenzian@TheNerdyMel Hi! Didn't want to interrupt the whole thread but was inspired by your comments on the thread about computer repair. I have a laptop morgue in my house; I haven't thrown any out (but more for security reasons than for repair ones).
How did you learn to repair drives and boards? The most I have done on my machines so far is replace keyboards and batteries and deep-clean.
@mackenzian I do parts swaps, rather than trying to repair the components on a board (i would need so much more solder practice, and for some boards specialized equipment).
I learned by googling the names of things and the problems and just reading a lot and watching videos. It's always good idea to check if iFixit has a teardown guide.
If you've swapped keyboards and batteries, then you're most of the way there-- brave enough to take it apart and persistent enough to put it back together.
@mackenzian There are a lot of repair-centric YouTube channels out there to follow. Louis Rossman has worked super hard for Right to Repair and his older videos were just him answering chat questions while he fixed stuff. The videos from when he got his board repair microscope table are really interesting if board repair is something you'd like to learn. I would guess there are better specialists, but I don't know them.
@TheNerdyMel Thank you so much! I will look Rossman up; sounds familiar and I wonder if I might have already come across him via Onewheel folks also lobbying for a right to repair.
Thanks for taking the time to respond; have a good weekend.
@mackenzian Yes, that's very possible you've come across Rossman if you've been paying attention to any sector of Right to Repair. Good luck in your repair journey!
I'm glad I happened to have the time to talk today. Giving old electronics new life and new value is one of the things I'm really passionate about.
Christopher Mardell@TheNerdyMel @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework I work on a web dev team where 80-90% are using Macs by choice (myself included). Having a native zsh terminal is quite handy for development. I have a 9yo MacBook Pro at home — probably not particularly reparable but still works and gets annual OS updates. Not bad for <50c per day.
@chrismardell @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework
As long as it keeps getting updates! 10 year old macs are still much easier to repair than brand new ones. We just took apart one from around the same era for a relative, realized they'd spilled soda on the board, bought a slightly better one by accident, went through a fun dance with ssd readers, and gave them back a 10 y/o laptop they keep calling brand new, lol.
@chrismardell I am not in a tax bracket that allows Macintosh to be a choice, but I don't like how un-customizable the GUI tends to be. I like to customize everything.
@onceitwas I used to be that way, and dabbled in Linux years ago. Nowadays I just find a lot of customisability to be an unnecessary distraction. 🙂🤷🏻♂️
@chrismardell - it's my coping mechanism
Jeroen Clemens 📚@TheNerdyMel @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework yehh. Ik cannot update the macOS on my MacbookPro 2016. Now, they say, I should buy a new Macbook. No, this one works fine.
@jeroenclemens @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework
It's the one old laptop problem you can't fight. We hung on to our Note3's until 2020 just over the replaceable batteries. When we finally gave them up, it wasn't hardware failure, memory degradation, or even because old new stock batteries were less reliable.
It was because they were locked out of software. I get that there's a balance that has to be had in hardware support, but I loved that stupid phone and hated giving it up.
Mike Spooner@TheNerdyMel @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework Rejuvenating too.
I've lost count of the number of friends' laptop computers that seemed on their last legs, basically unusable, brought back to sparkling life with: a cheap SSD to replace HDD, second-hand additional RAM, and (usually most important) a fresh reinstall of O/S and apps with all their data restored.
To those friends, it seems like magic; and very grateful that it is £20-£30 instead of £300+ for a new computer (I don't charge friends for effort and tooling, only for any parts needed that aren't already in my bucket of spares).
@shelldozer @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework with friends, that look of relief on their faces makes it worth the time. And sometimes the repair is simple enough that you can do it while you hang out over dinner. Those hard drive swaps have paid for themselves almost every time in the social time and sweet memories they've facilitated.
Dustin [BusySignal-KE2EFX]@shelldozer @TheNerdyMel @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework the SSD/RAM new OS repair / fixer-up was my entire pandemic - even getting PCs and laptops from goodwill that weren’t good to salvage parts from. I probably did about 25 upgrades for friends and family when they all of a sudden needed home PCs for kids remote. It’s amazing what those three combos can do.
@dustinfinn @shelldozer @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework
Yes! We had so many friends, friends of friends, and family that couldn't afford that new computer expense when lockdowns hit. We took a lot of abandoned closet laptops and sub-$100 ebay machines and Frankensteined as many folks through it as we could. I bet a lot of the families you put machines together for are still using theirs, too.
@TheNerdyMel @dustinfinn @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework Absolutely. At least until Oct 2025, and you can probably guess why.
A couple of other things that can help tremendously on older 2006-2012 vintage systems):
(1) Replacing the hopeless OEM original CPU/chipset thermal paste/pads that, after a few years tend to have dried out, with proper long-life oil-based extremely-high-thermal-conductivity paste: Shin-Etsu X-23-7783D. This helps stop the CPU from self-throttling due to overheating due to failed thermal paste.
(2) For Core2 series CPUs, replacing the usually low-end CPU with a faster/larger-cache Core2Duo (typ. £6-£10) helps hugely. This is accompanied by judiciously undervolting the replacement CPU using Throttlestop software (set to run as a scheduled task 'at system startup', to reduce temperature and preserve battery-runtime, both back to the previous levels.
@TheNerdyMel @dustinfinn @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework
Merom CPUs can usually be undervolted down to 1.0V, Penryn down to 1.025V. Of course, as each inidividual CPU varies a little, this needs stress-testing, which I usually do with Prime95 until it shows faultless for 24 hours.
The subsequent Arrandale and later CPUs have flexibly-and-internally-managed voltage-ramping, thus Throttlestop is not needed for those.
sycramore@shelldozer @TheNerdyMel @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework RAM can be a huge problem when it doesn't work for whatever reason. Tried this multiple times with laptops and they didn't boot with the new ram. Apparently some bios versions only accept ram from certain vendors.
@sycramore @TheNerdyMel @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework
Or where the chipset eg: supports 2x2GB, but the OEM (Dell, can you hear me?) has artificially limited the system to 2x1GB in BIOS.
I have a word for that particular tomfoolery, but not repeatable in polite company.
@shelldozer @sycramore @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework
Okay that's it, between the excellent thread of additional tips and that statement, you've gone and done something I like and now I'm fond of you.
Andy Sherman@shelldozer @TheNerdyMel @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework I’ve often found that the cheapest and most effective elixir is memory.
@andy_sherman @TheNerdyMel @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework
Yes, indeed!
IME, for typical basic Windows10 use, 4GB RAM and 3MB L2 cache are really the practical minimum; for heavy use, 8GB RAM and 4+MB L2 cache are usually required.
Choong Ng@shelldozer @TheNerdyMel @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework In some cases a new wireless card can work wonders as well.
Thomas Dickerson@shelldozer @TheNerdyMel @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework My wife's 2009 13" Macbook is still running smoothly with an SSD + 16GB of RAM (nevermind that that old 1280x800 display looks like a potato now)
@elfprince13 @shelldozer @onceitwas @jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework hecking yes. I love all these stories of computers kept out of the trash.
Andrew Linke@jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework awesome idea. If I hadn’t followed a hand-me-down policy on tech, this would be my next best approach.
ceoln@jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework
Extremely cool beans! I just pre-ordered one (the DIY appear to be out of stock?), and I bet @pluralistic 's post had resulted in LOTS of orders. :)
I wonder when November Batch 5 will ship...
David W@jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework
There are a lot of linux options that make the desktop appear indistinguishable from windows eg Mint. I had a box setup and my 80yo FIL had no idea that it wasn't just the standard desktop he was used to using
sztupy@jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework for (very) old laptops still having a CD/DVD drive, I usually put the HDD over there and replaced the SSD with a cheap small one. They get a much-much faster OS, but retain the extra disk space this way.
Rito Ghosh 
@jerrylevine @pluralistic @framework
UNLESS you are doing something that REQUIRES Windows, use Linux or MacOS over Windows.
Linux or MacOS should be the way to go.