@wgahnagl @sir The FLOSS community isn't hostile towards minorities, but it's very much focused on merit. If you yell loudly and often, but don't really bring any code to the table, people are more dismissive of your calls for action. Don't forget that most FLOSS software is also made for gratis by other people. Demanding they change the things they worked for in their spare time because you feel like it's something you deserve isn't "empathy for marginalized groups". That's just harassment.

As for the Glimpse fork of GIMP it's important to note that, in reality, the word "gimp" isn't offensive to the vast majority of the world. To demand a change that's relatively costly to most users, and to do so using harassment tactics[1], seems like a very strange thing to me if you're arguing for compassion and empathy.

[1]: I'm not saying you use harassment tactics, but the group demanding the rename on GitLab was.

@tyil but right, look at the first part of your argument. You mention minorities, and bring merit as almost an argument against them, by putting them at odds with each other. I know you didn't mean anything by it, but it's these very very small actions that build up to contribute to a hostile environment.
When you hear arguments about minorities in FLOSS constantly at odds with "merit", eventually you believe that the community doesn't aknowledge your skill, which is hostile. +

@tyil and specifically in the case of "gimp" being nonoffensive to most of the world, why do you value "most of the world" more than you value the few? Does it make a difference how many people are hurt when you know that people are hurting?
I think it really is an issue of empathy, and seeing the people on the other side of the argument as nothing more than people the other side of the argument. +

@wgahnagl @tyil
It's very hard to find a name for a project that wouldn't be offensive at least somewhere in the world.

@balsoft @tyil I think you're seeing these projects as 100% eternal but names can and do change pretty frequently lmao
Even in a post apocalyptic world where every word has become offensive, people can still make up words and rename projects.
I think your argument stems from a fear of being inclusive to everyone all the time which is frustrating when you don't understand the perspective of people who work towards inclusiveness.

@wgahnagl @balsoft There's nothing to understand about people who make up problems by ignoring context all the time. The "fear" of being inclusive to everyone would only be that thus far in history, all this "progressive" bullshit has only led to more "progressive" bullshit. No issues have been solved as of yet. History shows these people to be dishonest about everything. You shouldn't cater to such people all the time, if at all, if your intent is to make the world a friendlier place.

@tyil how would you make the world a friendlier place then?

@wgahnagl @tyil To make the world a friendlier place we need to learn to not take offence that was not intended. Learn to forgive. Learn to focus attention on real problems (like bugs in the code or aggressive nationalist groups) instead of fighting the shadow of our psychological problems.

@balsoft @tyil all of these are very fair points! But I do think that unintended hurt still hurts! Even if offense wasn't intentional, it still has an impact on the person that it impacted, and the community that reinforces that hurting someone unintentionally is OK.
That's how spaces become hostile to minorities. It's never an open discussion of bigotry, it's ten thousand tiny punches that break bones.

@wgahnagl @tyil That's fair, but a community that attempts to not hurt anyone is doomed to spend all the time on fixing issues with unintentional offence. People can be unintentionally offended by everything including variable names (master/slave thing for example). I'm sorry that it hurts someone, but I don't mean to hurt them, I'm just writing code. If they really want to get rid of these things, I invite them to find a better alternative, use sed and create a PR

@balsoft @tyil but that's it! I think we're really close to the same page! You can have a community that strives not to offend anybody, and the only step you have to take is to respond with kindness when someone brings something up.
This whole thread is because of a fork of GIMP, which essentially is a renaming PR that never got merged. The devs didn't respect the stance of the people renaming it, forcing them to fork. +

@balsoft @tyil if someone comes to you with an issue in your code, respond to their concern with a good faith effort to understand their perspective.
Asking someone to use inclusive language comes from a basis of kindness, even if their tactics are abrasive, and if you both agree that your goal is to make space for everyone, work towards a solution with them.
That's all you need to do. +

@wgahnagl @balsoft The problem is that there's no semblance of good faith coming from the supposed "offended" people. If you come to my project and demand changes, then call me nazi when I say no because your demanded change is a lot of effort with no payoff, you shouldn't be surprised I'll tell you to fuck yourself in the next comment.

You're acting as if there was no wrongdoing whatsoever on the part of the complaining people, when that's the big problem here. It's as if you intentionally ignore the problems of the people you support, in order to have a case against the people you don't support. There is no kindness coming from the Glimpse camp in any communication towards the GIMP camp.

I also don't intend to make space for everyone. I don't intend to make space for people that want to see me killed, or hurt in other ways, for no reason other than me having the "wrong" opinion to them. Respect needs to go both ways, you can't demand respect while being a disrespectful twat.

@tyil @balsoft dawg, it is ridiculously hard to talk to you.
You've called me a twat like five times, and I've been doing everything I can to keep my tone as reasonable as possible. I would like to try and help you, but you seem intent on letting me know that you just don't see me as a person, and won't try.
It's a waste of both of our time to keep this up if you can't afford me the decency of not insulting me at every other reply.

@wgahnagl @balsoft What? I've never called you a twat. And from my point of view, you haven't been that reasonable by ignoring most of my posts, and pretending like there's only a problem with people that oppose social "justice".

How about you stop trying to pretend I'm saying things I haven't said, and instead just try to focus on the things I have said?

@wgahnagl @balsoft I mean, you're still insisting I'm saying things I'm not saying at all. I've never once implied I don't see "the other side" as not being people, it's something you assume for some reason or another. Whatever you were planning to make work, you won't make it work by half-reading what I say, making false assumptions out of it and then pretend I'm being a bad person because of it.

In case you need clarification, the part you quoted was included in a larger thing, and you seem to be trying to ignore context, something I've been hammering on as being an incredibly important aspect to any social situation. The full sentence is "Respect needs to go both ways, you can't demand respect while being a disrespectful twat", and I stand by that. If you're being disrespectful, you shouldn't assume people will treat you with any respect either. If you consider yourself part of the group that demands respect but isn't respectful towards others, that's not my problem. Trying to make it my problem feels disingenuous to me.

You yourself said "if someone comes to you with an issue in your code, respond to their concern with a good faith effort to understand their perspective". Can you extend this to all conversations, including this? Don't assume I'm saying things out of "bad faith", because I'm not. If I were acting in bad faith, I would've probably just left a snarky remark and never respond to your comments.

@tyil @balsoft idk dawg, I spent like all of yesterday trying to figure out your perspective and where ours differ but despite it, you still seem really worked up.
You're upset that I'm not engaging with a lot of your replies, which is frustrating, but I know that if I do, it won't be worth it while you believe that me and people like me are irredeemable. Making any argument will get shot down instantly because of how you argue. +

@tyil I think that my statement about how you "don't see people as people" could be better stated by saying that you don't see them as people you have any responsibility towards.
I get this from your stance that they're fakers, they exist as a mob, enjoy being victims, and are just generally assholes.
You see them only as the actions that are visible to you, and not the reasoning and thought behind them.
I think that from that I can't create any common ground.

@wgahnagl

> You see them only as the actions that are visible to you, and not the reasoning and thought behind them.

Well, yes, the behaviour (thus their actions) of people is what defines them. Not whatever made up group they ascribe to. Not what color they are. Not what they're attracted to. It's their behaviour. I guess it's a very different way of thinking, as you seem to try to think in they way groups are, whereas I try to think in they way people do.

While reasoning is important, as it establishes context, it is not a free pass to behave in a certain way. For instance, if you believe women are oppressed in western countries, that on itself is fine. Talking about it is fine. Calling people nazi for not believing you is less than fine. Calling for violence against people that don't believe you isn't fine. Not even if you yourself are a woman that is (according to you) oppressed.

Looking at the comment section on the GitLab issue at the GIMP repository, I see some incredibly nasty things hurled at "the opposition". That kind of behaviour is why I come to the conclusion that clearly, they don't really believe in "hospitality" or "kindness" as much as they pretend to. They don't show any respect to the GIMP developers, yet you say they ought to be respected nonetheless. I don't agree with that. If they want to be treated with respect, they should earn it by treating others with respect.

@tyil !!!!!! Omg this is it! This is the issue!!
I operate on the assumption that intent is at times more important than what is actually said!
Since I assume that everyone is working in good faith, even if I'm being screamed at, I try to parse their intent first, and if that intent is "be more kind" I do my best to listen.
If you don't value intent, and only the words that are said, then it's just ridiculously hard to figure out why anyone would support them! +