Audience

Elisa Graf is both a writer and an editor and has started a podcast called Mystic Takeaway. She loves stories about the transcendent and the everyday world colliding, and the surprise, joy, and wonder that ensues. Her podcast showcases extraordinary stories of mysterious encounters and miraculous healings.

In our conversation, we found ourselves talking about podcast show statistics. They come up often when people first dive into podcasting. Everyone quickly realizes there’s an array of numbers that can be tracked. But what do those numbers mean? What numbers should we be shooting for? What does a “download” or “listener” even mean? But rather than dive into techno-babble, I was curious about what first surprised Elisa about podcasting stats when she published her podcast.

When you open a Simplecast account, they have this little section called analytics. They tell you all the countries where downloads have come from. A download isn’t necessarily a listen, but it’s a good chance that people are listening if they download it. Simplecast shows you the total download numbers, what times of day, your most-downloaded episodes, and which podcast players they’re being downloaded on. I’ve gone back and forth between being addicted to looking at that, and trying to keep it out of my sight.

~ Elias Graf, 2’10”

While there remains some contention around the topic, consensus has formed around the Interactive Advertising Bureau’s (IAB) efforts to uniformly define podcast statistics. (The IAB’s mission is to, “Engage a member community globally to develop foundational technology and standards that enable growth and trust in the digital media ecosystem.”) Through several revisions, an industry-wide standard has been created as a set of podcast measurement guidelines. If you want to dig into podcast statistics, and the IAB’s efforts, (and the controversies,) I suggest beginning with Podnews.net’s IAB articles.

If a show is going to try to sell advertising, then someone needs to understand the statistics because that’s how advertising is sold. But if we can avoid it, I’m with Elisa and I don’t want to overthink it. But even without diving into the specifics, there’s a lot we can learn from just a high-level look at the statistics.

I’m an analytic thinker and I love to run little, (or not so little,) experiments to try to answer questions I have. In March of 2020, I started a simple, daily podcast reading short quotations from my collection. My question was: What would happen if I put up a simple episode every single day for 365 days? What would happen if I did nothing else, and simply published it? It’s been nearly 500 days and it’s coming up on 16,000 downloads. It’s averaging more than 100 unique listeners per week, and has been downloaded in significant numbers in more than 10 countries.

My first take-away from the experiment is that listeners will discover podcasts. I don’t know if that’s from the podcast directories or podcast player applications recommending them, or from other listeners sharing. But my little experiment definitely got discovered by listeners. Even more interesting is that—related to Elisa’s comments about what countries are people downloading from—I find it inspiring to see all the different places where my work is being heard. This tiny little bit of work that I’m doing to create each episode is reaching people all over the world.

Elisa and I agreed that it’s important not to get overly focused on the stats. She has so many good reasons for what she’s doing, and it’s not about how many people are listening. At the same time, people have been popping up telling her they love all her episodes, or that they’ve been listening since the beginning. They’re mostly people she already knows in the meditation space. None the less, it’s fun to hear that other people value one’s work.

Many podcasters talk about posting audio clips, even short videos made from those audio clips, and getting good results on various social networks. But Elisa and I both know that if we aren’t paying for something, then we are the product being sold to the advertisers. The social networks are motivated to use algorithms to not show our posts to everyone that wants to see them, until we pay.

There’s much better success—more people see it and more people interact—when someone else shares something we’ve posted. Which leads immediately to the idea of asking our podcast guests to share what we’ve created.

I’ve found that it’s really hard to get a guest to share their episode of your show. First, we’re asking them to put their name behind our work. If I’ve created an hour-and-a-half podcast episode, and then I say, “please share this,” the first thing someone thinks is, “I need to listen to it.” Instantly, my simple, “please share this,” request has become a request for a large chunk of their time. In effect, I’m asking for another chunk of time, (in addition to the time they gave me when we recorded the podcast.) Worse, even if the guest enjoyed the recording process, they may still not want to hear themselves for fear of how they might sound.

(Here, I’m going to break from the narrative of my article a bit. I’m writing this article months after recording the episode with Elisa. Just before I started working on this article, a podcaster asked me to share an episode we’d recorded about a month prior. All my suppositions above were perfectly revealed in my own thinking. “Share it? Well I’d have to listen to it first. And how long is it?” followed immediately by, “and do I really want to hear what I said?” I believe asking a guest to share is an enormous ask. Caveat emptor.)

It’s totally true. One of my guests, said some things that I didn’t know were uncomfortable for him, and then didn’t want to share it. He told me after it was published, saying, “I wish I hadn’t said that. Because if it gets around to one of my friends, they’re gonna be upset.” It wasn’t hard for me to take those details out, so I said, “I’ll just go back and I’ll scrub them and I’ll just put it back up again.” He was so grateful, and after that I got a lot more listens on that particular one. So I think he did pass it around after that. But it’s hard. He didn’t want to listen to it. I don’t think he wanted to listen to himself. He had regrets about what he’d said. Then it was a period of a month or something. It took some time before we ironed that out— That he finally told me and then I was able to fix it. And then it took him a long time to listen to that. So it’s a process.

~ Elisa Graf, 9’33”

I believe we’re always going to have fans. The fans who listen to every episode. I could hide the podcast under a rock in the woods and they’d find it and listen. But settings the fans aside, I think most people who listen to my podcasts are listening to just one episode. We all know that as you build that body of work in the back-catalogue, the stories that we’re sharing don’t deteriorate. New listeners are going to find the episode via the topic that was talked about, or they’re going to find it via the person who was the guest. People will listen to that episode two, three or more years later.

I felt Elisa and I had come to the idea that we each simply have to do the hard work ourselves: I have to share my own things in a way I feel is appropriate and meaningful for what I’m sharing. I can’t rely on my guests. I can’t expect that just because I landed a really popular guest, that I can sit on their coattails. The power is in the value of the work even when it’s simply sitting there for years.

Elisa went on to share some experiences of encountering people who have become dedicated listeners to her show. Also that her first episode, where she describes her inspiration for beginning the entire podcast project, continues to be downloaded by new listeners. It is happening that people hear one, and then go back and listen to the older ones.

It’s amazing, really, the whole idea. This medium of finding your voice, and then ship. Putting something that you really care about out there in the world, and having it have its own life. It’s having its impact. It has no half life— it could go on for for a long time.

~ Elisa Graf, 12’45”

There are so many possible ways to approach using social networks to make our shows known. It’s incredibly difficult to know on which platforms to focus, and what to do with our content. In my opinion, it’s difficult to get someone to change mediums. They are in their podcast player app listening, and they listen in a certain physical place or mindset. They are not in a place or mindset where they expect to interact. So saying, “rate my show” or “share with your friends” requires them to change contexts— to change place or mindset.

The same holds true for someone on a social network. If we put up an audiogram or cover-art image on a social network and say “subscribe” or “listen my show” it requires them to change contexts— to change place or mindset to the one where they listen to podcasts. But once someone “has” you in both of those “contexts,” then your efforts start to work. I’ve seen my social network posts of an old back-episode, to an audience of ~500 followers, generate a 40 download bump. That’s a huge response of 8%. But it’s arguably ~500 people who already had my project in both of their contexts. Then, my social network post reminded them of something in their podcast context.

Those of us who are podcast creators, we already know it’s a grind. The key lesson here is to realize that putting effort into social networks is entirely different from creating podcasts. It’s critical to be mindful of how much effort you’re going to need to do it well, and to then be sure you have that much spare energy and time.

Elisa and I wrapped up our conversation by touching on ratings. The evergreen question is do ratings help? Do they make our shows more visible, or attract new listeners? The issue I have with ratings of any kind is there’s always going to be a motive for whoever created, posted, or curated the ratings. When I see ratings like, “Number one show,” or “3.5 stars,” I zoom out and think: Who rated that? What does that rating tell me? What was the motivation for that rating being created?

That said, I think there’s more to be gained by asking the other side of the ratings question: If I ignore those ratings created by other people, what then am I interested in? What is success for my show? What is success for any episode that I create? For me, it’s if someone listens to an episode, and then can some day have a more meaningful conversation with the guest. That’s success. If an episode can improve that potential future conversation, for both the listener and the guest, that’s success.

Sometimes people come up to me in person and talk about a show (any piece of my podcasting work), or sometimes I’ve overheard people talking about a show, and that’s delightful. I love the one-on-one interactions. Elisa also shared her feelings about getting personal notes from people telling her how much they enjoyed a particular episode, or how they loved hearing a particular story. And I agree: That’s the part that is truly gratifying.

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This written-to-be-read article is based on a transcript, my recollection and my opinions. Any mistakes or mis-representations are my own—but I’d love to have them pointed out so I can correct them. All of the quotations here are edited lightly for readability and clarity. Delivering insight in realtime, while being recorded in a single take is difficult, so I’ve edited only with the intention of highlighting the awesome parts.

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#GreatPodcastEpisodes #PodcasterCommunity #Writing

Storytelling

Linda McLachlan is the host and creative spark behind The Arena. Our conversation began with the topic of storytelling. I was interested in learning how she was using storytelling in the context of her podcast. In particular, I wondered if her thoughts on storytelling had changed after applying it to podcasting.

In The Arena, Linda uses a mostly consistent set of questions to power her conversation with her guests. This started as a backbone around which, in each conversation, she could find other questions to ask and build it out. Unexpectedly, the story that comes out each time is quite different.

What continues to fascinate me is that I ask basically the same questions, but the story that comes out is always quite different. In creating the podcast originally, I hadn’t necessarily decided that I was going to stick with the same questions. What has become important to me is making sure that I’m telling a story that is compelling for the listener to follow.

~ Linda McLachlan

Linda’s insight to focus on storytelling was sparked when she took a storytelling course with Bernadette Jiwa. Developing an understanding of using story, and narrative structure, while developing her podcasting work, proved to be perfect timing. Asking herself questions such as: “How am I going to communicate this stuff? How am I going to tell these stories in a helpful way?” guided her to creating the backbone structure for her podcast.

I was curious to know how much of the story arc she develops before the recording, and how much it ends up changing in post-production. It does come out different, but surprisingly, not completely different.

I ask largely the same questions, and can sometimes anticipate where that guest will go in their story, but there are always surprises. What I think is going to be the pivotal moment for their life can be quite different from what they choose to talk about. And it’s not as though they’re backing away from a moment that is difficult or transformative. It’s that they, in their mind, see it very differently than I might.

~ Linda McLachlan

A challenge for anyone recording conversations or interviews is deciding how much of our process or structure to explain to the guest before recording. In Linda’s case, since the questions are mostly the same, there’s also the chance that a guest would know what questions are coming. Linda pointed out that even when the guests have listened to previous episodes, and thereby had an idea what questions to expect, there’s still a degree of surprise. Right at that moment of being asked, guests are still surprised at how and where the question takes them. Beyond the planned questions of Linda’s baseline structure though, it’s the follow-on questions that often work the magic.

But sometimes the story arc remains unclear. In those cases, Linda does the hard work of editing things to make it clear.

It really depends on the person and their storytelling style. It depends on how tangential we get. Some of them, you have to go in with a chainsaw for the first edit. And then subsequent edits might be a little more surgical. I would say I do a fair amount of editing, and that is perhaps due to my lack of skill in terms of interviewing at this stage.

~ Linda McLachlan

For my part, in my Movers Mindset podcast, I do long conversations that are often an hour-and-a-half, and sometimes approach two hours. But I’m not trying to create, or even uncover, a story arc in post-production. We do remove things which would detract from the listener’s experience. I’d like to believe that I’m creating a podcast episode which is meant to enable the listener to experience the guest. But perhaps I’m just being lazy by not attempting to go further into the work and craft a story arc.

Linda mentioned another podcast creator, Jule Kucera of Hard Time and Hope. Jule uses a similar structure for her podcast, walking each guest through their story. While the questions are very different, you still anticipate the structure as it plays out: What is it going to be this episode? What is the “hard time,” and what is “the hope?”

Linda recently began coaching in the Akimbo Podcasting Workshop. I suspected this gave her some unique perspective on where the skill of using storytelling, or story arc, fit into the evolution of a beginner student learning to podcast. While we both agree it’s a useful and interesting tool to learn, it might be a more advanced tool that is better left for later in the journey of learning to podcast.

As we began to wrap up, a freight train quietly rolled through the small town where I live. (I was reminded of Simon and Garfunkel’s, Train in the Distance; “Everybody loves the sound of train in the distance / Everybody thinks that’s true.”) Linda took us in a new direction by making an insightful connection to interruptions to our work.

I love the fact that there was that interruption. We can get really focused on having this pristine sound. But every once in a while, something random happens. I was listening to Carole Blueweiss’s podcast Wisdom Shared, and she was interviewing this young woman. Suddenly there was this argument happening in the background; A mum, dad and daughter having a heated discussion, and Carol just dealt with it so well, and she kept it in. I think that there’s a realness and humanity that one can allow to come into the podcast from a storytelling standpoint.

~ Linda McLachlan

To wrap this up, I’ll leave you with some more of Linda’s words:

The thing about podcasting is that there are no rules. …being able to just be in a creative mindset, tell the story you want to tell, share the stories or the information that is important for you to share with the world, and be creative without concerning yourself with the rules. And as much as I’ve talked about having a story arc and having a story structure, within that there is an enormous amount of freedom.

If you give seven different artists the same restriction, it’s amazing what they would come up with. Take the restrictions, take the goals, and make them your own. Just go with that moment of creativity, and concern yourself less with what others are doing. Be aware of it, explore, steal like an artist, but also allow your creative juices to flow and just put out in the world what you most want to be able to do. Podcasting is one of the most unrestricted areas of creativity right now, and that gives you license to put it out in the world without any sort of restrictions.

~ Linda McLachlan

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This written-to-be-read article is based on a transcript, my recollection and my opinions. Any mistakes or mis-representations are my own—but I’d love to have them pointed out so I can correct them. All of the quotations here are edited lightly for readability and clarity. Delivering insight in realtime, while being recorded in a single take is difficult, so I’ve edited only with the intention of highlighting the awesome parts.

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#GreatPodcastEpisodes #PodcasterCommunity #Writing

Consistent, Current and Context-driven

The podcast episode, Consistent, Current and Context-driven, is a scant 5 minutes and 43 seconds long. You’ll probably want to pause and take some notes. After it widens your eyes, go revisit your copy of Getting Things Done—or omgbecky buy a copy, …how do you not own a copy?

Everything I have ever accomplished is because I have systems within which I can think and operate; our brains are for having ideas, not for remembering things [such as: to-do lists, dates, reminders, etc.]

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#DavidAllen #GettingThingsDone #GreatPodcastEpisodes #KnowledgeSystems

Appearance on the Coffee Stain podcast

I recently had the pleasure of talking with Artemis Gavriilidou about philosophy, coffee, three words, and much more on her podcast, Coffee Stain (episode published March 22, 2021.) I probably rambled exactly as much as you expect of me—but don’t hold that against Artemis! Lend her your ear.

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#ArtemisGavriilidou #GreatPodcastEpisodes

To go in prepared or not

Here’s a terrific conversation with Werner Herzog and Jesse Thorn on The Turnaround.

Herzog’s opinion is that one must never go unprepared; always go maximally prepared. But I’m wondering how going in unprepared works with trying to capture conversations that contain the wonder of discovery [by the host.]

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#Conversation #GreatPodcastEpisodes #JesseThorn #WernerHerzog

Watching the light go on

This was Seth Godin’s second appearance on Brian Koppelman’s show The Moment and captures a slightly less polished version of some of his usual messaging. It’s easier to see his path to really polished books like This is Marketing and The Practice.

I think we talked last time about watching the light go on for people. That is my mission. That is what I’ve been doing since I was 18 years old, that when I’m doing my best work, what I’m doing is engaging with someone and helping them see the world differently and let them do work that they care about. And sometimes you can do that with a book. And the magic of books used to be that millions of people would go to a store waiting for a light to be turned on. So it’s scaled. And it was a combination of solitary endeavor, but a community one as well. I do it in person with people I care about. But that doesn’t scale. So the question is, is there a way in this post book world to be able to create environments where people change.

~ Seth Godin ~3:17 in the July 7, 2015 episode of The Moment with Brian Koppelman

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Depending on where you normally listen, this episode might be hard to find. It’s more than 300 episodes back (7 years) in Koppelman’s The Moment podcast. I couldn’t find it on the main web site for the show. (I originally found it because I have a way of manually, human-reading RSS feeds, beginning from the first entry in a “drip” system.)

The link below is to a service from Overcast (the podcast player app) which will let you play it in your favorite web browser.

https://overcast.fm/+HS-ViyTws

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#7ForSunday #BrianKoppelman #GreatPodcastEpisodes #SethGodin