Kaja 
Question for cis men:
In which ways have you deconstructed your patriarchal programming?
@Newstrujew
@pathfinder
@Aspiedan
@PatternChaser
@sakurasubnet
@forse
@Laberpferd
@rat
Thank you for sharing your interesting perspectives with me. I didn't comment on your replies, because I wanted to create a judgement free space for you. I would like to read more content like this here on Mastodon. It would be great if cis men themselves initiated an exchange like this.
Laberpferd@KaCi
there is a lot more i could possible write, but its a mix of burnout and the traumatizing experience of that so much of what i write leads to social isolation from "normal" people who feel i am either lazy whiny or beeing a danger to the careful grown harmony of their bubble
there is a lot more i could possible write, but its a mix of burnout and the traumatizing experience of that so much of what i write leads to social isolation from "normal" people who feel i am either lazy whiny or beeing a danger to the careful grown harmony of their bubble
PatternChaser@KaCi @Newstrujew @pathfinder @Aspiedan @sakurasubnet @forse @Laberpferd @rat
As a tiny young child, I learned that there are victims (most of us) and there are bullies — those strong enough to take what they wanted (and they did). That nearly all of them were male escaped me.
Later I heard the term patriarchy, and recognised it as a description of some (most!) bullies.
Being #AuDHD gave me a different perspective, as several others have also described here. 🤷 😢
SakuraSubnet 🥙@PatternChaser @KaCi @Newstrujew @pathfinder @Aspiedan @forse @Laberpferd @rat Exactly. So much of stupid and harmful stuff done by men is taken as a general problem. School bullies? Men. Drunk people, shouting around at 3am, pissing in the streets and vandalizing? Men. I even had to visit the gym for 3 years to meet the first women in my life, moaning awkwardly and throw around the weights like a gorilla. Every week there was at least one man doing that.
@sakurasubnet @KaCi @Newstrujew @pathfinder @Aspiedan @forse @Laberpferd @rat
My own thoughts on this tell me that "patriarchy" is discriminatory. Not all men act so (although FAR TOO MANY do).
So I would choose not to use that word, but instead to refer specifically to those persons who (for example) treat women less well than they should. Or children. Or poor people. Or those whose skin is not 'white'...
Condemn the criminals by naming their crime(s), not their group(s)? So:
Misogyny is a crime! It must be opposed and stopped. The misogynists are the criminals!
Bullying and victimisation likewise. And so on... 😢
@PatternChaser
Am I allowed to challenge this point of view?
@sakurasubnet @Newstrujew @pathfinder @Aspiedan @forse @Laberpferd @rat
@KaCi @sakurasubnet @Newstrujew @pathfinder @Aspiedan @forse @Laberpferd @rat
Of course! That's the purpose of discussion, right? 👍
@PatternChaser
You are a pattern chaser. Systems are patterns. This is what I mean, when I talk about societal programming. Patriarchy, same as white supremacy is a system established over centuries by people in power to sustain their power. Some years ago, I read a tweet by a Black person saying that
“Racism aren’t the sharks, it’s the water.”
Same is true for patriarchy. As soon as we are born, we are influenced by these systems on a subconscious level. Media plays a huge role in that. The stories, the narratives that are told over and over in our society. The beautiful princess, the evil witch, the happy end. Misogyny, same as racism, neuronormativity, heteronormativity and so on are deeply ingrained into the systems we grow up in, they influence our access to education, medical treatment, housing, practically everything we are confronted with on a daily basis, what we need to survive.
Furthermore, they influence the way we think about ourselves, how we interact with each other, they create power dynamics in relationships, that we are not aware of as long as we don’t understand the systems behind it.
As long as you see the sharks, but not the water, the societal programming influences you on a subconscious level.
@sakurasubnet @Newstrujew @pathfinder @Aspiedan @forse @Laberpferd @rat
@KaCi @sakurasubnet @Newstrujew @pathfinder @Aspiedan @forse @Laberpferd @rat
Yes! For myself, I agree with every word you say (write). [Although I'm not 100% clear on the meaning of the sharks/water thing.] 👍
@PatternChaser @KaCi @Newstrujew @pathfinder @Aspiedan @forse @Laberpferd @rat It's a little bit like the actual meaning of acab. There are several police persons out there with good intentions and a good heart. The criticism of that phrase plays on the system level not the personal level. The role is problematic not the person itself - but the role affects your actions! Being feminist is being against the patriarchy, the system created by men, not being against men itself.
@sakurasubnet @PatternChaser
How I understood the analogy, it's also about the aspect of omnipresence. It's all around you, it's inside you, you can't escape it, just acknowledge it. I try to be more aware of the water inside me, not only of the sharks around me.
Forse (he/him)You seem to assume that "patriarchy" means "all men are bad" which... is very much not the case. =|
@forse Understood and agreed. 👍 But such words often move toward such meanings, sometimes confusing or compromising efforts to resist the thing in question. 👍
IMO, of course! 😀
@PatternChaser These words don't move by themselves.
They are moved by people who choose to use them in particular ways.
By saying that "patriarchy" is discriminatory towards men, in which direction are you moving it?
@KaCi i am autistic and i simply have never been part of this "maleliness" (hope this translates approximately right)
I resisted for a while the idea of privilege in general, but eventually it was the only way to explain society and I had to accept it.
Male privilege was the main part of it.
I realized that I had built a model of reality based around my own experiences only, and that model was very incomplete because people different than me have very different experiences, and the only way to understand those and have a model of reality that actually works was to /trust/ what these people were telling me instead of dismissing their experience because it didn't fit my model.
I started noticing how some of my behaviors and habits made society worse, how I unknowingly took advantage of the privilege I had and how that made other people's lives more difficult.
It was a lot of work (which doesn't mean I'm done) but it allowed me to understand a lot of behaviors I didn't before, to understand society better and to have more empathy.
I am a dance teacher and now in my classes everybody learns both lead and follow roles, and it works great.
@KaCi I don't know why, but I also questioned gender roles since I was a kid. But somehow had to grow up in an christian fundamentalist house hold and try to build an identity, so I learned them (and unlearned them later). Patriarchy often sells gender roles/expectations as biological/historical/biblical facts - and you can't debate against facts. But once you realize everything is in fact made up bullshit, everything falls apart. Made up bs, which keeps men in power and women under control.
@KaCi Now I know everything is interweaved: Capitalism, Imperialism, Sexism, Racism, Ableism, Nationalism, Fundamentalism... When you want to fight one, you have to fight all because they support each other.
@KaCi
A: I haven't. I try to treat everyone with care, courtesy and respect, and I hope that I will be treated so in return. 🤷
A: I haven't. I try to treat everyone with care, courtesy and respect, and I hope that I will be treated so in return. 🤷
Mind Shambles@KaCi I've never held to patriarchy. I am autistic and well aware of my flaws. My wife and I are a partnership, and have raised our kids to be ethically and socially responsible. Of the 3, 1 is autistic, 1 is adhd and 1 is audhd. One is also trans, and we are fiercely proud of them. In our circle, everyone is valid. Its the outside world that needs to change
Kevin Davy@KaCi
I have always considered it obvious that you should listen and be prepared to learn from the experts and that means those at the actual coalface.
Whether that is neurodivergent or otherwise marginalised folks taking about their experiences. Or women talking about their lives and societal experience.
If in doing so it makes you uncomfortable, or you find yourself beginning to join the dots in ways that you find shameful or not exactly kind to yourself, then that just means you are actually paying attention.
It also means that you now have your starting point to make the changes in how you think and react and the assumptions you have lived with, without questioning before.
In this case, to begin to do the work that you owe women, but that they don't owe you, however you find works best for doing that.
I have always considered it obvious that you should listen and be prepared to learn from the experts and that means those at the actual coalface.
Whether that is neurodivergent or otherwise marginalised folks taking about their experiences. Or women talking about their lives and societal experience.
If in doing so it makes you uncomfortable, or you find yourself beginning to join the dots in ways that you find shameful or not exactly kind to yourself, then that just means you are actually paying attention.
It also means that you now have your starting point to make the changes in how you think and react and the assumptions you have lived with, without questioning before.
In this case, to begin to do the work that you owe women, but that they don't owe you, however you find works best for doing that.
Janus@KaCi Where do I start... The household, the kids - that's my responsibility. Yes, I'm not always doing a good job, and AuDHD is part of the reason. But my wife currently has other priorities, and she has every right for that. She was completely gone for a year, and that was necessary for both of us.
Our relationship is unusual if viewed through the patriarchal lens. I love her, she loves me, but neither of us owns the other. And that means that she is for example entitled to an affair if that's what it takes to make her happy. I hear stories about men following their wives around and I can only shake my head - I know that my wife will simply tell me anything important because I won't judge.
For my kids it is perfectly natural that there are people who don't fit the binary gender expectations or who don't fall into the heterosexual norm. They know that people choose their pronouns. And that I will always be there for them no matter what choice they themselves make. I'm very happy for them because neither of that came naturally to me.
Anti. 🐘