Aral BalkanA person opposing genocide does not have to explain themselves. It’s the humane default.
If you’re playing devil’s advocate and the topic is genocide, guess what? You’re not playing devil’s advocate. You’re the devil’s public relations department.
No, there aren’t “good people on both sides” when one side is commiting genocide.
Good people do not commit genocide.
Good people do not defend people who are commiting genocide.
Good people are not complicit in genocide.
You can do all of these things today with impunity because we live in a corrupt world that’s circling the drain of fascism. You can do all these things and feel safe, protected by a system built on settler colonialism – the beneficiary of past ethnic cleansings, apartheids, and genocides and run by its heirs.
You can do all this but what you cannot do is call yourself a good person. Because you’re not.
Opposing genocide isn’t a preference. It’s the lowest possible bar for humanity.
Momo@aral
An important lession we kids learned in germany when talking to older people:
There might be people who decided to ignore the genocide. And later say "But we just followed orders!" or "But we didn't know anything about all of this. We would have protest, but we just didn't know!!"
And then you go to the archive and check the local newspapers from that time, read through the articles and realize: It's a lie. Everyone knew.
Truth CollectorGood Momo, but the power construct of older people is often too strong for the young - i.e. they have to directly challenge just about everyone if they going to only *try* make a change or voice their opinion + their inexperience - so even from a knowing + doing stance it would take big spoons to go against parents (2), school, herd of family, and just about everyone PLUS risk food / shelter.
So I think is knowing is one thing - but doing is seems really suicidal with risks?
@momo
So pretending "not to know" or "doing nothing seems" right (safe*) as it's danger towards them (*it's less risk by following / obeying what is now huge #system to overcome with parents who can be fatally blind in child's upbringing).
Not every parent wants or even understands all that it means to reject the whole basis of life.
#GretaThunberg as example shows the hassle she's faced or extreme she went to and what father had to invest himself to support here (#time #money #life etc).
@momo
I agree it's the right thing to do overall...
But even adults (even you) might not do this #advice..
For example as a soft test, answer for yourself or other adults how many are paying knowingly extortionate #rent prices in cities - so why don't people stop that?
#Answer is probably like any child,
they don't want to risk food / shelter / water / friends + social risk.
Even if the prices and gap between pay is rising at unmaintainable level - you're paying it (and the bad people).
Yenn dc ☂️Without getting further into the discussion, at least from now, I have to point out that doesn't change the point you're replying to: “I didn't know” or “I was *just* following orders” are still lies.
What you're saying is (condensing a lot) that the real reason is more along the lines of “it was too hard/risky not to”… which ofc no one will claim because it sounds terrible, even if true. :D
But it's separate from above's.
@yenndc I'd like to know how it's separate as this seems a big part of anyone's reasoning (if not the whole reason) to keep their life going more than the genocide of others.
@yenndc @yenndc (the above first / can ignore below)
If it costs your life / your job / livelihood, #relationships to speak out, it's not likely people are going to #risk all that.
increment) yes it keeps us all lying.
Many lies revolve around needing to change your whole life / reject whole system in order to be true! (think like a #Go game needing to flip all stones in between).
So I don't get the angle perhaps but that instant threat / bribing corruption we're in is to barely stay alive.
As I said, I'm not getting that far into the discussion yet… ^^`
So a more literal reading might help understand the highly specific point (in comparison to yours) I was making.
My point was to repeat that ① "I didn't know" is clearly false (and ② "I was just following orders" similarly so) — these are the ones the op noted.
[And as a result of being false, claiming them is a lie; this kind of goes by definition.]
Your point is based around the difficulty and consequences of uprooting the system or going against it.
This actually requires knowing what the issue is, or it wouldn't even arise, so you're implicitly conceding ①.
And I think we can agree that ② would be a terrible summary of what you're saying. :)
So it's separate in the sense that it's pointing toward a issue (or set of issues) that those two don't, and it doesn't actually argue against those two.
It's certainly not separate in the sense that it has no relation, yes — they very much have the same root.
Again, for now I'm not addressing your deeper point(s). There's a valuable discussion to be had there, but it'll have to be another time or with somebody else. ^^`
-
Completely unrelated, but on the message I'm replying to in particular, there seems to be a cut sentence…
/^increment\)/
- Cut part was not important.
Happy to leave it there.
Whenever you feel for more see below:
Yes and no to what you said:
- Yes people can know things but
- No they do not have to do anything about it (it's ideal but it's a right and also an option, not an expectation).
- "It's certainly not separate in the sense that it has no relation..." - This seems to sum priorities my end of the argument a bit more than yours as risk to lifeline / social contruct.
Happy to leave it there.
Even in previous #genocides, the masses were not speaking out even for themselves due to risk of life in similar ways.
High-risk #reasons I think are big part of saying the #truth - it makes sense to "#ignore" (reduce saying #truth) until there is a proper solution.
Yes most people are not even working on a solutions (which is the problem) but it can also be a good thing for now to understand more of the puzzle pieces first before "solving" it / various economic-related #genocide etc).
Yes I agree & maybe misunderstand parts:
Lie yes, but in this indirectly violent #default and overwhelmingly forceful danger to be cut-off from humanity and f___ our own lives (enforced by years of systematic) then it's hard to say anything publicly and wiser to be a bit cautious and consider how to help ourselves in similar situation when speaking / doing things + balancing the rest of the enshitted life.
You can go mad / #suicide / get into financial trouble battling it all. {Sigh}
@collective_truth
Valid until 1945. Definately not valid in 1990 when I asked people.
Valid until 1945. Definately not valid in 1990 when I asked people.
If if there is some context about 1990, let me know what it is (where / how you asked people?)
Not much has changed since 1945 in terms of what people want (money) and not it's just the direct #war but clever soft-#economic approach to grinding people and their energy by giving and then siphoning from them *slowly* as longer lasting victims whereas before it was more direct bombing and externally economical bombing business.
e.g. Supermarket products are soft-war on people & land too.
Nicolás Alvarez@collective_truth @momo what the heck is going on with your use of hashtags?
Kierkethumbs up convincingly
Ben Hammond
Chris Haynes@aral "circling the drain of fascism" - excellent image.
divVerent
Li ~ Crystal System@aral yes! instead they just argue on when brutalizing and/or killing millions of people ""counts"" as a genocide, and play semantics like 'their not a racial group though!' ... because surely _thats_ the important takeaway from the whole situation
@aral Do you still do your live streaming?
THIS post is the good stuff as an audio chat I think would take it further, also financially for you.
e.g. I'll pay you for half hr of chat!
(Others also I'm sure!)
Consider instant #Jitsi chats - 3 clicks - no account, no reg, instant, any browser, any platform, link here:
https://jitsi.freifunk-duesseldorf.de/chat12345
or
https://jitsi.freifunk-duesseldorf.de/aral_chat
A more personally encouraging approach for awareness & answers (going to the gym with others / hearing our hero people) ?
It's Pronounced DEETS 
@aral I will never get over how this is a controversial, or even debatable position.