Mastodawn

2 weeks ago, girlfriend and me took a #nighttrain from Berlin Südkreuz to Budapest (EN 40457). On paper a 12 hour ride (20:25 - 08:29), in reality we arrived after 10 in the morning, since the train just stood around in Bratislava for at least an hour ("something with the rails" according to the conductor) and we started out with a >30minutes delay from Berlin.

I requested compensation through the #ÖBB -bot (which worked very well actually) and got a reply later on: denied, system says no, you arrived with less than an hour of delay.

What I noticed during our ride, is that somewhere after Břeclav (Czechia), our train state in the DB app stopped updating and it didn't take our Bratislava-delay into account anymore.

#crossBorderRail

Cycling on Rails 3d ago

@quin_antarctic I also often notice the same thing where delays are not properly tracked across borders. Train operators generally only see delay within their "home" country but default to "on time" once abroad.

In my opinion, this is why the upcoming EU regulation on passenger rights should include mandatory tracking of delays across Europe in an open data manner. There cannot be effective compensation if operators pretend delays don't happen. cc @erpu @jon @stefanlindbohm @bovine3dom

Oliver Blanthorn 3d ago

@cycling_on_rails IIRC the new TSI regs do have some clauses trying to prevent such orphaned trains. so in theory it should get better within the next five years

(and delay data must be released with a real open licence as opposed to the highly commercially sensitive stuff like "where is the Speisewagen?")

@wnd might know more

@quin_antarctic @erpu @jon @stefanlindbohm

Dr. Sobek 3d ago

@bovine3dom @cycling_on_rails @wnd @quin_antarctic @erpu @jon @stefanlindbohm What is a Speisewagen ?

Cycling on Rails

@Sobex @bovine3dom Restaurant car in German 🙃

Dr. Sobek 3d ago

@cycling_on_rails How is that commercially sensitive ?

Cycling on Rails 3d ago

@Sobex It definitely shouldn't be. I think @bovine3dom might refer to the fact that GTFS open data is lacking such detailed information about train composition, but you can purchase that information for a hefty fee from the railway operator or a paid database like MERITS (about 50k€/year)?

Or some operators (SNCF?) simply only distribute such information in their own ticketing app behind a login or captcha, preventing 3rd-parties from displaying useful information to passengers?

Oliver Blanthorn 3d ago

@cycling_on_rails close! you gotta swot up more on the TSI regs

Oliver Blanthorn 3d ago

@Sobex sorry it was a joke for maybe three people in the world

the new TSI regs force railways to publish train formation (which carriage is where) but only requires them to release it under "no derivatives, non-commercial" usage restrictions

which is clearly completely bonkers because what kind of unfair commercial advantage can you get from knowing where first class is? or the restaurant car?

@cycling_on_rails

Dr. Sobek 3d ago

@bovine3dom @cycling_on_rails Hmm, so what is considered Derivative work in this case.
(I assume the publication is done as a textual format, not a nice picture ? Right ?)

Looking up an image corresponding to the train and displaying that would be derivative ?

Oliver Blanthorn 3d ago

@Sobex honestly, no idea. i think the main thing it tells you is that the person/committee who picked that licence has never built anything in their life :)

@cycling_on_rails

Dr. Sobek 3d ago

@bovine3dom @cycling_on_rails Yeah ND is kind of only suitable for a finished product that can be redistributed as is. 🤦‍♂️

Oliver Blanthorn 3d ago

@Sobex not a lawyer, don't want to be a lawyer

if you've picked a licence where everyone who might actually use the data says "what the fuck does that even mean?" then i would argue that you have picked a bad licence

@cycling_on_rails

Will Deakin 3d ago

@Sobex @cycling_on_rails that would be a question for the railway undertaking.

Noting that on the GB network, which has a relatively permissive open data culture, it was only agreed to publish train consist information last year.

Dr. Sobek 3d ago

@wnd @cycling_on_rails
Edit: This was not an objection in the UK.

Well, train consist info is the sort of thing that can change unexpectedly last minute. ( @hopla how often do you end up with a different rolling stock as planned on your trains).

I've had a few instances of rolling stock changes on mandatory reservation trains (which leads to massive mess for plenty of reasons).

Will Deakin 3d ago

@Sobex @cycling_on_rails @hopla fair but that was not the objection. It was based on a concern about commercial advantage to competitors.

The vast majority of the time the consist is as planned and, if changed, this data is known and shared.

For example, a driver has know how to safely operate a train, a signaller has to know whether an alternative path through interlocking during perturbation is safe.

It's up to you if don't want to know, but don't make up reasons for those that do.

Dr. Sobek 3d ago

@wnd @cycling_on_rails @hopla I’m editing my message to reflect that my hypothesis was wrong then.

Will Deakin 3d ago

@Sobex @cycling_on_rails @hopla it is a reasonable statement though. RUs and IMs are very bad at sharing this information with passengers

Dr. Sobek 3d ago

@wnd @cycling_on_rails @hopla I do see this can be an issue, as a wrong information can be worse than no information, and this is typically a case where stale data can more likely remain.

(Cache invalidation is one of the two great problem in CS)