Mastodawn

Mud Road 22h ago

I'm as fascinated by the Artemis II mission as many other people, but as scientist I'm frustrated that experts interviewed about it in the media are rarely asked to justify the truly astronomical cost. So far the program is reported to have cost $93Bn, with the direct costs of this mission alone amounting to more than $4Bn. I'm perhaps particularly sensitive to this because I'm frequently asked to justify funding three orders of magnitude smaller that we have used to improve knowledge of how the Antarctic ice sheet will respond to climate change and contribute to future sea-level rise.

@PoLaRobs it's OK, USA spends that every hour just keeping the fleet in the Gulf, around 20k$/second. https://irancost.com/ is one of the more entertaining ones.

There's enough money for food, shelter, healthcare, accommodation, education, and a comfortable retirement. It's just not shared correctly.

So yes, it must be *beyond galling* to be a scientist trying to save this beautiful blue dot from becoming literally uninhabitable.

How Much Is the Iran War Costing You?

A live counter tracking the estimated U.S. taxpayer cost of Operation Epic Fury, based on the Pentagon's preliminary estimate of $1 billion per day.

Rob Larter 2d ago

@dch As I'm not an American the tax dollars being spent on both the war and the Artemis program are not mine, but the resources we have on the planet are finite, so everyone is a stakeholder.

@PoLaRobs apologies for assuming you were! and yes we are all sharing in the planet. BTW your previous posts with pictures from Antarctica are spectacular! Many years ago I decided not to do a winter-trip to the Ice, a choice which in hindsight I regret.

Rob Larter 2d ago

@dch Thanks. I'll have to live with the guilt of the carbon emissions involved in getting to and from the point of departure for what was mainly a pleasure trip, but when so many others are doing similar things it's difficult to forego such frivolities.
I've never really been keen on the idea of spending a winter down South though. I think the darkness and isolation would eventually get me down.

@PoLaRobs that darkness aspect was in the end why I didn’t go either - now I’m older and wiser and know I would have managed it.

Colman Reilly 21h ago

@PoLaRobs @dch but not necessarily fungible, which is what you start thinking when you get too caught up in the myth of money.

@PoLaRobs I heard a NASA interview where they stated, "We're going to get a lot of great pictures." Like, wow.

Rob Larter 2d ago

@donlamb_1 Well for most of us that is the most obvious immediate benefit, but I think it would be impossible to come up with a plausible justification for the cost per picture.

rhempel 16h ago

@donlamb_1 @PoLaRobs If the images had the same impact as the Blue Marble image in the 60s - then maybe it is worth it.

Unfortunately there is little excitement about these images outside of the space nerd (term of endearment) community.

The world was not unified behind the fate of the Artemis astronauts - too much really important stuff for too many humans on the too hot Earth to worry about.

Rob Larter 15h ago

@rhempel @donlamb_1
Hmm. How much impact should we expect for the investment of $4Bn in this mission alone? As you say, there are too many other things going on today that many people are concerned about. Back in the late 60s the Apollo missions were a welcome distraction for many from the cold war, which had reached a state of stalemate.

rhempel 14h ago

@PoLaRobs @donlamb_1 I think we are on the same page - Tang flavour crystals and Velcro aren't going to cut it in today's world.

There are definitely more important things to spend treasure on - and as much as the space nerd in me is impressed by the beauty of the Artemis capsule and launch system, the Apollo capsules look quaint and much more risky.

As long as people have to put off life saving medical treatment or worry about losing their ability to buy food, this stuff has to wait.

FoolishOwl 2d ago

@PoLaRobs Wow, that dwarfs the costs of the mission to retrieve Martian soil samples.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_sample-return_mission#Proposals

Mars sample-return mission - Wikipedia

Jean-François Mezei 2d ago

@PoLaRobs Pork. When the Shuttle was killed , certain key industries knocked on politicians doors for sustinence. Politicians dictated the new rocket had to have solid rocket boosters. Dictated use of shuttle engines with tank made at Michoud. ATK (now part of larger company) made not only shuttle SRBs but also intercontinental missiles which is cyclical business, and SRBs keeps it alive between large ICBM purchases.

Rob Larter 2d ago

@jfmezei Those may be the primary reasons, I honestly don't know, but even assuming that is true it doesn't excuse journalists for not asking the tough questions.

Jean-François Mezei 2d ago

@PoLaRobs For journalists, the replacement of Shuttle with Ares/Constellation/SLS/Artemis has always been so obviously pork that it was not worth asking. But they are quick to point out the costs of the project to nowehere because their spin is to show NASA can't do anything anymore. Ability to launch Artemis II was a HUGE step for NASA to disprove that narrative. SpaceX has yet to reach orbit with its monster, and nowhere near able to land on moon as promised as part of contract with NASA.

Rob Larter 2d ago

@jfmezei Even if something is obvious to those in the know this doesn't excuse journalists for not asking people to articulate the justification for the vast investment of public money. Humans going into space is one of the activities that many of them get so excited about that they forget the basic principles of their role.

Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE 23h ago

@PoLaRobs We know what the justification is - "gotta get there before the Chinese."

(*Why* the USA gotta get there before the Chinese is the bit that isn't explained.)

>Why* the USA gotta get there before the Chinese is the bit that isn't explained.

To distract their own population from the fact their empire is decaying?

@TimWardCam @PoLaRobs

DeterioratedStucco 21h ago

@TimWardCam @PoLaRobs

To ensure that they don't wind up as a poor country with a stupendous military and *nothing else*.

Hammer, nail.

(They're getting there.)

Rob Larter 20h ago

@TimWardCam The strange thing is that this line of reasoning doesn't seem to be working for polar science, which is needed to inform us about a range of threats we need to understand better to plan adaptation for a resilient future.

Ewen Bell 📸22h ago

@PoLaRobs

This comes across like a zero-sum equation. I think back to the likes of Carl Sagan and the arguments for space missions, and many many other scientific endeavours. I like to think the question isn't so much "why spend this much money on space exploration" and more "why don't we spend more on health and education at home" instead of weapons of war or corporate welfare.

I also feel too much of science careers are spent justifying money and efficiency and relevance, instead of encouraging innovation. Universities have been forced into justifying their capacity to serve industry, instead of serving society. Same goes for Arts funding. We need humanities skills as much as knowledge itself.

I just listened to a fascinating talk by the late Stephen Garton on this topic:
https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/bigideas/stephen-garton-universities-humanities-academy-lecture/106341138

Can an arts degree change the world? A defence of the study humanities at Australian universities - ABC listen

Universities are under pressure — particularly the study of subjects like languages, history, social sciences and the creative arts. This lecture looks back to a time, post war, when governments turned to universities to transform Australia's economy and society, and backed it up with significant investment and oversight. In the face of contemporary challenges, is it time once again to rethink the purpose of universities — and particularly the study of the humanities — to equip Australia with the skills it needs to survive and thrive in the 21st century? Stephen Garton's Australian Academy of the Humanities Annual Lecture "When Universities Mattered" was recorded on 12 November 2025. An edited version of this lecture is published in the March issue of the Australian Book Review. Speakers Stephen Garton Professor of history, President of the Australian Academy of the Humanities, former Vice-Chancellor, University of Sydney, former Dean of the Faculty of Arts From the archives: Is our university system broken? With Emeritus Professor Graeme Turner and Dr Ben Eltham, Big Ideas, 4 September 2025 Further information: Vale Graeme Turner Australian Academy of the Humanities obituary, November 2025

ABC listen

Rob Larter 22h ago

@ewen
I agree with most of that, but resources are finite and when spending on a particular endeavour runs into billions of dollars I think it is right to ask what the benefits are. When numbers get that large many people lose all sense of proportion. I agree that there is value to space exploration in general, but I question whether it is necessary for missions to be crewed.
I absolutely agree we spend too much time justifying research. If the proportion of their working hours academics spend writing research proposals that are never funded (in the UK at least) was widely known it would be a national scadal.

Rosy Maths 22h ago

@PoLaRobs 😭 I 100% sympathise with you on this. It's unbelievable.

I am connected to one of the leading schools of nursing. There may be a few dozen grants above $10M. This is what world nursing care leadership looks like.