Mastodawn

Gerry McGovern Apr 8

So green and clean

"We may think that the wind turbines we see blowing in the wind up and down the country will last forever, but that's not the case at all. These blades do need to be replaced and some 11,000 tons of wind turbine blades are due to be decommissioned in Ireland by the end of this year. Unfortunately, the glass fibre materials used in the construction of these blades are not biodegradable."

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2026/0401/1491819-wind-turbine-blades-recycling-reuse-podcast/

DoomsdaysCW Apr 8

@gerrymcgovern Yikes! For some reason, I thought they were metal. That's not good.

@gerrymcgovern But at least there's this...
"Wind turbine blade reuse in civil engineering and other applications is in its infancy, and is not utilised on a larger scale, mainly because there is no information on the current stock of these blades in Ireland and their mechanical fitness to be reused in second life structures."

Gerry McGovern Apr 8

@DoomsdaysCW there are millions of them dumped in toxic graves that will poison for thousands of years. They just don't design this stuff to be reusable or recyclable. And we don't calculate these total costs to the environment. Once you can tick the box "reduces CO2" you can do practically any other harm you want.

Tyrone Slothrop Apr 8

@gerrymcgovern Siemens Gamesa is selling recyclable blades, it seems:

https://www.siemensgamesa.com/global/en/home/explore/journal/recyclable-blade.html

RecyclableBlade

Gerry McGovern Apr 9

@slothrop
I'm sure there's examples but the general thrust of the "renewable" industry is in the very opposite direction. They're building EVs now with all sorts of strange wholly unrecyclable alloys. Every year, modern tech becomes less repairable and less recyclable. Yet the branding always wins. Just stick a "sustainable" label on it and everything is ok.

Billiglarper Apr 9

@slothrop @gerrymcgovern @DoomsdaysCW

Also wind turbine blades are not toxic.

Gerry McGovern Apr 9

@billiglarper
Wind turbine blades are not toxic?

"Trace elements (TEs) from turbine corrosion-protection systems could generate significant ecosystem, economic, and human health risks. We calculate annual inputs for current European OWF capacity (30 GW) as: 3219 t aluminium, 1148 t zinc and 1.9 t indium, but these will increase ~12× by 2050, eclipsing known discharges."

"Paucity of industry data" allows harms to be hidden, as usual

https://www.nature.com/articles/s44183-024-00101-6

@slothrop @DoomsdaysCW

Offshore wind energy: assessing trace element inputs and the risks for co-location of aquaculture - npj Ocean Sustainability

Co-locating aquaculture with Offshore Wind Farms (OWFs) is a novel global energy sustainability policy driver. However, trace elements (TEs) from turbine corrosion-protection systems could generate significant ecosystem, economic, and human health risks. We calculate annual inputs for current European OWF capacity (30 GW) as: 3219 t aluminium, 1148 t zinc and 1.9 t indium, but these will increase ~12× by 2050, eclipsing known discharges. However, a paucity of industry data makes it impossible to compare water and sediment TE concentrations at operational OWFs against toxicity thresholds, therefore, ecotoxicological risks are under assessed. TE accumulation in seafood is a major human exposure route. Accumulated high tissue concentrations in oysters, mussels and kelp during co-location culture would contribute significantly to or greatly exceed (e.g. oyster zinc accumulation) an adult’s Tolerable Weekly Intake. We provide an industry/regulator ‘road map’ for implementing key policy changes to minimise unintended risks of rapid global OWF expansion.

Nature

Billiglarper Apr 9

@gerrymcgovern @slothrop @DoomsdaysCW

You linked an article on corrosion protection of offshore wind farms, not on wind turbine blades.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921344924004695

About 70% of wind turbine blades (WTBs) are fiber reinforced polymeres(FRPs). "In addition to FRPs, WTBs typically incorporate polymeric adhesives, sandwich core materials such as balsa wood, as well as bonded joints, coatings (such as polyurethane), and metal lightning conductors"

Gerry McGovern Apr 9

@billiglarper
The idea that wind turbine blades are not toxic and do not pollute doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Leading Edge erosion and pollution
from wind turbine blades
https://docs.wind-watch.org/Leading-Edge-erosion-and-pollution-from-wind-turbine-blades_5_july_English.pdf

@slothrop @DoomsdaysCW

Billiglarper Apr 9

@gerrymcgovern @slothrop @DoomsdaysCW

Are you trolling?

https://cleanpower.org/resources/microplastics-and-bpa-in-wind-turbine-blades/

Claims vs. Facts: Microplastics and BPA in Wind Turbine Blades | ACP

Wind turbine blade coating is not toxic and does not account for large – or any – emissions of BPA or microplastics. Claims have been made that wind turbine blades […]

ACP

DoomsdaysCW Apr 9

TBH, I'm always a bit suspicious of lobbying associations, @billiglarper . #FollowTheMoney

@gerrymcgovern @slothrop

Gerry McGovern Apr 9

@DoomsdaysCW
Yeah. "The American Clean Power Association (ACP) is the leading voice of today’s multi-tech clean energy industry, representing energy storage, wind, utility-scale solar, clean hydrogen, and transmission companies."

@billiglarper @slothrop

DoomsdaysCW Apr 9

Let's just ignore studies, right, @gerrymcgovern ? (Also, this makes me question all the 3D printed stuff that folks make. What is in those?)

"In 2021, the University of Strathclyde published the measurement data of wear simulations on uncoated P10 epoxy under weather conditions of rain and hail. The aim was to produce a map showing the intensity of erosion for wind turbines.

"However, those measurement results were in principle not directly usable for blades, because only the wear of the leading edge of the blades is dominant.

"But the results were used by the Norwegian Turbine Group to calculate the amount of epoxy dust for the entire surface of the blades. That gave no less than 62 kg. epoxy dust over the total surface per year!"

https://iowaclimate.org/2022/09/03/toxic-blade-time-bomb-new-study-exposes-scale-of-wind-industrys-poisonous-plastics-legacy/

Toxic Blade Time Bomb: New Study Exposes Scale of Wind Industry’s Poisonous Plastics Legacy

Landfills are the final destination for millions of worn-out wind turbine blades, where their toxic plastics will be left to rot for the ‘benefit’ of generations to come. These 10-20 to…

Iowa Climate Science Education

Tyrone Slothrop Apr 9

@DoomsdaysCW @gerrymcgovern Gentlefolk, let’s calm down.

The various renewable-oriented industries indeed have a long way to go in terms of making their products more recyclable and sustainable.

On the other hand, even an offshore wind park full of non-recyclable blades is preferable to a coal or gas power plant - I don’t think there’s much of a question on this point.

Let’s continue pushing for improvement.

DoomsdaysCW Apr 10

@gerrymcgovern and I have been pushing for improvement for many years, @slothrop . But we also don't buy into #Greenwashing and hype, and always try and look into potential pollution from new miraculous technology.

Billiglarper Apr 9

@DoomsdaysCW @gerrymcgovern @slothrop

But making up fantasy amounts of unhardened resin is ok?

Sorry, this is just made up flooding-the-zone-with-shit disinformation.

There's not much to say about fibre-reinforced plastic when using carbon or glass as fibers. It's very inert once hardened. It's simply not toxic.

Just think about the use cases outside of wind farms. From boating to lightweight planes and helicopers, to bycicles, car parts and sports gear. 🤷‍♂️

DoomsdaysCW Apr 9

Gotta love that block button, @billiglarper . It's great for folks who like to argue and shout down folks. @gerrymcgovern @slothrop

DoomsdaysCW Apr 9

Heh... So, "Bill" sounds like those pro-nuclear trolls who used to harass me on the Bird site, @gerrymcgovern . Once, I managed to track down who was paying them (it was NEI).

Gerry McGovern Apr 9

@DoomsdaysCW Yeah, so sorry to hear that.

You deliver such wonderful information. So rich and well researched and full of real stuff you can do to make things better. Always worth a read.

anubis2814 Apr 9

@DoomsdaysCW @gerrymcgovern At this point, nuclear is only viable for grids with tons of growth, or cold and dark like say finland As dirt cheap as solar and battery are getting, nuclear is overpriced for most stable economies. India and China and maybe Pakistan and Indonesia will find nuclear to be viable, the rest of the world not so much

DoomsdaysCW Apr 10

Nuclear is never viable. Not until we can find a way to deal with nuclear waste, @anubis2814. And not while uranium mining is still polluting Indigenous lands. @gerrymcgovern

DoomsdaysCW Apr 10

And China has been doing a lot involving renewables, @anubis2814 . They are way ahead of everyone (even if they aren't fully sustainable and non-polluting.) @gerrymcgovern

Axomamma, Antifa from birth Apr 9

@DoomsdaysCW You're right, you do "gotta love that block button." I 've read this thread, and it's clear who the problem is. (It's not "Bill.) Enjoy the party!

Joanna Bryson, blathering Apr 8

@DoomsdaysCW @gerrymcgovern yeah, I was wondering, I know nothing about reuse of fibreglass, but it seems like the kind of substance you out to be able to recycle, at least a few times, like paper. Had a fight about how cyclic photovotolic was on bsky lately (for even asking the question!) so guess I should get informed about wind too. Do you know any comparitive on footprint across all energy tech, pref including geothermal , fossil, nuke?

Gerry McGovern Apr 8

@j2bryson
I have tried to get true total environmental costs and found it almost impossible. For example, what's the cost of wiping out entire Andes ecosystems for lithium? What's the cost to enslaved Uighur for building Chinese solar? Any time I hear "cheap" solar or batteries, I shudder.

anubis2814 Apr 9

@gerrymcgovern @j2bryson @DoomsdaysCW Why just replacing all cars with electric, is not sustainable. We need to drastically cut car dependency.

DoomsdaysCW Apr 9

And allow and encourage #telecommuting and #RemoteWork for jobs that can be done remotely! @anubis2814 @j2bryson @gerrymcgovern

anubis2814 Apr 9

@DoomsdaysCW @j2bryson @gerrymcgovern My company luckily does that.

@DoomsdaysCW Don't forget the most obvious one, massively improving the transit net, so that connections are fast and frequent enough that you don't need to worry about when to leave to catch it?

@anubis2814 @j2bryson @gerrymcgovern

@anubis2814 @j2bryson @gerrymcgovern @DoomsdaysCW you mean only replacing a part of the cars and the rest stays ICE? Yes, less cars, less flights, less of everything. But on the individual level: why should I have no car if my neighbour has one? And regulatory: politicians are still mainly bribed by fossil companies - no chance to get anything done ...

anubis2814 Apr 9

@stephan324ppm @j2bryson @gerrymcgovern @DoomsdaysCW we need to actually make car owners pay for the subsidies the rest currently pay for them. For every dollar we spend on cars the combined us government spends $4-6. Less than $1 for public transit, and possibly negative dollars for bike and other micro mobility infrastructure. Sure. You and your neighbor can own a car, i just want you to have to pay for it, and can have the easy option not to own one of i want.

DoomsdaysCW Apr 10

So, maybe we can make bigger vehicles pay more, @anubis2814 ! The MAGA dude with a monster truck causes way more wear and tear on the roadways (and uses way more fuel). But smaller passenger cars (who are being bullied off the road) do a bit less damage. Just putting that out there. I love the idea -- and making roadways safer for bicyclists!

@stephan324ppm @j2bryson @gerrymcgovern

anubis2814 Apr 10

@DoomsdaysCW @stephan324ppm @j2bryson @gerrymcgovern Yeah a weight tax is something I'm 100% down with.

Joanna Bryson, blathering Apr 10

@anubis2814 @DoomsdaysCW @stephan324ppm @gerrymcgovern Apparently Paris instituted size-based parking charges and utterly altered Parisian car purchases. I wish #Berlin would do that! cc @20percentberlin

inamruzui Apr 10

@DoomsdaysCW @anubis2814 @stephan324ppm @j2bryson @gerrymcgovern however rv owners shouldn't really be affected by such

Joanna Bryson, blathering Apr 10

@Kuniti_shino @DoomsdaysCW @anubis2814 @stephan324ppm @gerrymcgovern They should certainly be affected if they park in the city limits, though agree the taxes should be the same as any second or primary home. Germany at least perversely charges way less for parking than other forms of land occupation.

Joanna Bryson, blathering Apr 10

@anubis2814 @stephan324ppm @gerrymcgovern @DoomsdaysCW is that including or excluding the massive fuel subsidies paid under the guise of government paying for fuel transport / transit e.g. pipelines?

mirabilos Apr 10

@stephan324ppm @anubis2814 @j2bryson @gerrymcgovern @DoomsdaysCW yes, less of everything may be a good idea. There’s more and more of compute around people, this trend has started with “smart homes” and IoT and them having to put a computer into things where some discrete logic or the tiniest µc would have sufficed… and the dual horrors of disposable electric cigarettes (which in itself is a triple horror already) and “AI”… I guess the industry does not know the definition of “less”

mirabilos Apr 10

@DoomsdaysCW @gerrymcgovern at least some are being reused for bicycle stands that are rain-protected. But, ouch, I had no idea it was this bad.