Mastodawn

洪民憙 (Hong Minhee)

I don't own a car. I take public transit everywhere, and I do think personal vehicle use has real environmental costs. But I don't think driving is inherently unethical.

I live in Seoul, and the city makes transit easy for me. That's not a virtue. It's a condition I happen to benefit from. Some people live where transit barely exists, or where it doesn't get them to work, school, or care. In those places, driving is not optional.

The same is true of flying. In parts of Europe you can cross borders by train. In island nations, or in places with weak land connections, flying may be the only realistic option. “Just fly less” means very different things in those places.

A lot of what gets called my ethical choices comes from the conditions I live in. That makes me wary of turning structural failures into personal morality. If the alternative is missing or unusable, shaming people for not choosing it solves nothing.

When environmental harm gets framed as individual moral failure, attention shifts away from the structural changes that would actually matter. It's not an accident that oil companies spent decades popularizing the idea of the personal carbon footprint.

Deb Nam-Krane 10h ago

@hongminhee Cosign

WhiteHotaru 10h ago

@hongminhee thanks for this post, as it shows that similar thoughts are thought all over the world and there are similar situations. In Germany @SheDrivesMobility is fighting for a change regarding the usage/options of public transport in thinner populated areas, as our mobility has to change. In his book „The Ministry for the Future“ the author proposed blimps for air travel and solar sail powered ships for overseas travel. We are not yet there, unfortunately.

Passwordsarehard4 4h ago

@whitehotaru @hongminhee @SheDrivesMobility you Germans and your blimps, still trying to make them happen. I like the tenacity of nothing else.

ARGVMI~1.PIF 3h ago

Which gas will we fill them with? Hydrogen is rather combust-y and helium is getting scarce.

I guess we wouldn't have to worry about helium scarcity if we had practical fusion reactors, but if we had practical fusion reactors then we wouldn't be talking about carbon footprint any more, so…

@hongminhee @SheDrivesMobility

Melissa 10h ago

@hongminhee nicely said, and I agree. (Also, I was lucky to use Chinese trains and Seoul subway fall 2024! I want more time in Seoul...I thought I would need my daughter to translate, but I found it easy to go places alone.)

Korawich Kavee 9h ago

@hongminhee it's not a problem of personal choice, it's the design of policy we created leading to that personal choice.

@hongminhee - 100% agree with this, change comes from a mix of personal decisions and addressing systemic failures, and what's ethically right will be dependent on circumstances. I guess the only universal ethical factor is that everyone should do as much as they reasonably can to enact positive change.

In any case, systems are the collective behaviour of individuals, so systemic change still starts with individual action, just of a different kind.

:EA DATA. SF:9h ago

The "unethical" is on the part of city designers, counties, cities, states, and countries that incentivize building for cars instead of for buses, trains, and bikes.

It's both personal and environmental.

Angela Miller 9h ago

@hongminhee
Very much agree.
I live in rural Scotland where transport links are less than patchy, and having a car is a necessity. Our car is electric, thankfully, but but we have to have it or I can't get to and from work. There isn't a public transport alternative that gets me there on time!

Tubemeister 8h ago

@Alternatecelt @hongminhee That last bit is sort of key. "On time".

There is a reasonable consideration there, even in PT dense the Netherlands it can be patchy, The routes to work are such that it takes a minimum of 2 hours door to door (by regional bus - ugh) versus 40 minutes by car. So I drive.

Last workplace, about an hour by motorcycle but all intense traffic. The train took ~90 minutes but was relaxed. Train it was.

That said, I mostly work from home nowadays, which is even better.

@hongminhee yep.

Here, in Atlanta, public transit is so limited that you have to drive most of the distance you want to travel, just to get to the train system.

Saupreiss #Präparat500 🗽8h ago

True, but with a difference:

It would be entirely possible to establish a usable public transport system in Atlanta (MARTA *is* pathetic).

It’s totally uneconomical in rural areas, and like @hongminhee mentioner, Geographic challenges make that impossible elsewhere.

(I‘ve also used Ferries as local public transport. They will NOT work where I live. 😝).

@Saupreiss @hongminhee That's a really good point. I'm 40 minutes outside the city.

Saupreiss #Präparat500 🗽6h ago

I‘ve heard from a similar location probably very close to you that extending public transport would lower house values because public transport attracts folks who can‘t afford cars…

@Saupreiss @hongminhee oh, that old argument. Yeah. I've heard that a lot. There is a lot of hostility towards pedestrians, cyclists, anyone not driving a car.

Quixoticgeek 9h ago

@hongminhee exactly.

I think flying is excessively demonised. It accounts for less than 2% of emissions. It's like 10% of surface transport. But by going after flying a certain class of eco people can look down both on those who drive up to the private jet terminal in a giant range over, and the people who are going 3 hours away for their one 2 weeks holiday of the year. Without actually tackling any of the far bigger sources of emissions

I wish there was more campaigning for public transport

PupWrafie 8h ago

@quixoticgeek
Its 2% only for co2 and that may sound like a small number but it actually is not. It's like 5-8% of you take into account all factors and gases/effects: https://www.atmosfair.de/en/air_travel_and_climate/flugverkehr_und_klima/climate_impact_air_traffic/

For example condensation trails, which also depend on the flight route, have a much bigger impact than over might expect.

Also, as always, it's not just always about "what is emitted now", but "what was emitted in the past", but this afaik mostly applies to these country comparisons like "uh Germany only accounts for 5% of the global warming" (currently!).

Good source but unfortunately I'm German: https://www.vcd.org/themen/flugverkehr

I actually found https://ourworldindata.org/carbon-footprint-flying and https://ourworldindata.org/global-aviation-emissions that explains this in more detail. The detail one may easily miss: "Most people in the world do not take flights." (like, any!)
@hongminhee

The impact of air travel on our climate - atmosfair

atmosfair

Quixoticgeek 8h ago

@PupWrafie @hongminhee that's still under half of building heat/light/cooling. About a quarter of ground transport. It's on a par with steel and cement. There's a lot more far larger gains to be made before we worry about flying. Esp as for anything across an ocean, we have no viable alternative. And for many continental journeys the alternatives aren't great. I can't run night trains, I can't build high speed rail.

PupWrafie 4h ago

@quixoticgeek @hongminhee yet it's one of the things that can get worse fast "Flying is one of the most carbon-intensive activities — yet it contributes just 2.5% of the world’s carbon emissions. How does this add up? Well, almost everyone in the world does not fly. Studies estimate that just 10% of the world flies in most years.1 But as incomes rise, this will change."

See the whole article I quoted.

Quixoticgeek 3h ago

@PupWrafie @hongminhee a lot more of us heat/cool our homes, or own cars, maybe those are areas we should focus on instead ?

And I say this as someone who's made a single flight in 20+ years.

Nafeon the Bear 9h ago

@hongminhee I like how France is coupling it to rules. "If a destination can be reached by train below 2h (or similar it was) then a plane route there can be removed."

If we would turn all of this into similar logical rules the of course you would just not apply them to say... the canaries.

Nafeon the Bear 9h ago

@hongminhee we can still work on electric planes though ~

KevinOnEarth 8h ago

@NafiTheBear @hongminhee
What is totally illogical is that, even in France, train travel is often MORE EXPENSIVE to the traveller than either flying or driving! Although its total cost (to the planet, the environment etc.) is clearly far less.
These are political choices. The 2h rule could be managed through pricing/eco-taxation alone.

Nafeon the Bear 8h ago

@Quantillion oh it is the same here in Germany, but it is easier to put political pressure on 'please make trains more cheap' then to put pressure on such a complex rule. @hongminhee

@hongminhee While I do agree with you in principle, I also think that certain personal choices can have a long tail of consequences that can be avoided. I find it good and necessary to make driving in places with good public transit very inconvenient. I do find it necessary to make local populations fight for more transit in more places. So it's not as simple as "countryside = driving". Why not increase living density wherever possible, so that transit and other sustainable options are possible?

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES 8h ago

@helenan @hongminhee

"Why not increase living density wherever possible"

right but that's not a personal choice

the only real personal choice that matters on questions like this is voting

if we don't vote, with these issues in mind, then we're culpable for our society failing us

otherwise, our personal choices still matter on questions like this as you say, but in smaller ways. larger structural issues are the dominant factor, influenced individually and personally, by our vote

@benroyce @helenan @hongminhee
First job is to prevent the MAGA/bad guys from stopping or stealing the vote.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES 6h ago

@TJC_2 @helenan @hongminhee

That's an overblown fear

The states control the vote

Red states may fuck with the vote but they're already red

The primary concern with this overblown "stealing the vote" fear is premature capitulation:

"If they're going to steal the vote, why vote?"

That effect is a bigger effect than any stealing #MAGA can do

Many Americans are cowardly and spineless that way

We just need to fucking #vote

Nonvoters are just culpable as MAGA, they're lazy entitled assholes

@benroyce @helenan @hongminhee
Understand that I am a voter and encourage all to vote. Important to vote. Also, they are trying their damnedest to squash and steal the votes and the election. We have to exert local vigilance and control over the voting process and protect the polls from the armed minions they want to send in. Corrupt officials are already stealing past votes, setting up an excuse for all the evil vote snatching they hope to do. And yes, it's critical to show up and vote.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES 6h ago

@TJC_2 @helenan @hongminhee

excellence

thank you

*and* make sure to speak out against this mindless acceptance of fascism "they want to steal the vote so i won't vote" premature capitulation spineless weakness

that's just as important in my view

@benroyce @helenan @hongminhee
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Thanks for speaking out and acting in the public interest.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES 5h ago

@TJC_2 @helenan @hongminhee ✌️

Mark Ohe 6h ago

Word to the wise, because in fact you do seem wise, and you certainly make a lot of good points, most of which I agree with:
You will come across as more sympathetic, more people will heed you advice and your apparent goals will be achieved if you cut out the unnecessary cursing and the often berating tone.

I’m probably not the first to mention this. Ideally I would be the last.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES 5h ago

upon deep reflection of your comment, i have arrived at a thoughtful response:

fuck you, gatekeeping asshole

i'm not trying to be funny. don't patronize me and tell me how to behave

in fact, i view "polite society" as complicit in our troubles

these are people who will look past a vile lie said serenely, and then suddenly get upset at people who say "fuck" in response to the silver tongued lie

i despise people like this, people like you

i really mean that

go fuck yourself

🖕

Barry Schwartz 🫖6h ago

@benroyce @helenan @hongminhee

I cannot stand when people have it in mind to tell others what to do, such as that they must move to the city and ride in a mass transit. I mean, who do they think they are, to tell people what to do?

You are right, just fricking VOTE!

VOTE! VOTE! VOTE!

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES 6h ago

@chemoelectric @helenan @hongminhee

the USA is terrible, it's so car-centric. even to the point of historically how auto manufacturers bought trolley lines for example just to shut them down forcing people into cars

but yes indivuals can't fix this. we as a society have to fucking show up and #vote on transportation policy. then the improvement

therefore, if we don't vote, *that* is the failure of personal responsibility, not if we move to a city or not to rid ourselves of cars

Barry Schwartz 🫖6h ago

@benroyce @helenan @hongminhee

Brooklyn and parts of L.A. were big trolley towns. So in a perverse way it was appropriate when the ‘Trolley Dodgers’ moved to L.A. Though really they belonged in Philadelphia.

I’m in the Twin Cities where we built a light rail system. Though it doesn’t go by the baseball field. It does go near where there was a baseball field a hundred years ago.

Barry Schwartz 🫖6h ago

@benroyce @helenan @hongminhee

I should say ‘either baseball field’, because we have both the Twins field and their AAA field.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES 6h ago

@chemoelectric @helenan @hongminhee

minneapolis is a great fucking town. suffering greatly under trump. i don't think it's dampened your spirits, probably strengthened them

Barry Schwartz 🫖6h ago

@benroyce I see businesses seeming to have put up rather solid steel fences and gates and think it must be to keep ICE out.

The Psychotic Network Ferret 7h ago

@helenan @hongminhee Living in a densely populated area is my own personal brand of hell. I did the apartment thing when I was younger, I was miserable. I moved out to the country when I bought my first house.

Yes, I have to drive everywhere I need to go, but mass transit in the USA is a joke even in urban areas. I'd like to think I am fairly responsible about it. I drive a 14 year old hybrid that still doesn't have 100,000 miles on it and is in excellent condition.

Kevin Karhan 9h ago

@hongminhee EXACTLY ALL OF THIS!

For me getting to a doctor - depending on severity - would mean walking a kilometer, taking a bus or worst case an ambulance.

For someone in the Maldives, it may be hours if not days on a boat or an air taxi.

@hongminhee brilliantly written!

Heleen Kuiper 8h ago

@hongminhee @thibaultmol that is true. But people choose to fly to cities for a weekend break. To take a vacation on another continent instead of somewhere they can drive. I’m not saying I never do that. But these are choices, and they can be made differently.

Itamar Turner-Trauring 8h ago

@hongminhee One the one hand, yes. On the other hand, in many countries car owners are the biggest obstacle to reducing car usage because they tend to view minor inconvenience (e.g. one lane less, or a bit less parking) as equivalent to death threats.

fan boy 🪭8h ago

@itamarst @hongminhee
Yes, and folks make personal choices to buy vehicles which are much larger than they actually need. Which gets worse gas mileage.

The vast majority of pickups are oversized and are never used to transport anything, other than the driver. It's just a culturally calling card.

Kerplunk 8h ago

When environmental harm gets framed as individual moral failure, attention shifts away from the structural changes that would actually matter.

Thank you for a very lucid post, you sum up the situation many people are in fairly.

We can not all live in citys or the majority of for example food production would stop.

fan boy 🪭7h ago

@hongminhee
Yes, but also it looks like folks in my city will successfully kill a plan to build a center lane bus solution. That's a car centric choice they are making, in the middle of a world wide fossil fuel crisis.

GhostOnTheHalfShell 7h ago

Oh, this is true. The question to be asking is why those structural conditions exist.

In the case of islands, that’s physical reality. In the case of car centric design, that’s an urban planning choice and development choice that harms people.

The focus is less on them choosing the options they have, to focus on changing what those options are

Alex@rtnVFRmedia Suffolk UK 7h ago

@hongminhee I watch Mr Ha's channel from Korea (he runs the fish farm and befriended and tamed 3 different families of feral cats, building them a giant catio where they all live together) and wherever he is (its never shown in the videos) is remote enough that you definitely need some kind of vehicle to get around (even just on his farm which appears to be several km across but he also builds his own small electric vehicles for this purpose)

🌷 marz 🌷7h ago

Thankful to see this post.

I live in a rural area. There are no buses, no trains, no carpools. We try to consolidate our trips out as best we can but there's only so much we can do.

I've straight up seen people suggest that people living in rural places were unethical - fully disconnected from the fact that this is where their food comes from.

Not everything can get concentrated into cities and not all of us want that life. Rural public transport is possible but lacking.

@hongminhee All true, AND, each person needs to make some effort.

MinmiTheDino 7h ago

@hongminhee 1000% agree. I think these personal choices are valuable when someone is feeling helpless. It can make a difference! If someone feels better having changed their habits, that is great and the carbon saved is great too. But I would never ever use them as a cudgel to shame someone. That’s completely misplacing the responsibility in my opinion.

The systems need to change. When we think of our roles it must be more about how we pressure the systems (voting, joining orgs we align with, pressuring reps) than about our tiny imprint we can make within the system.

ProScience 🇪🇺7h ago

I disagree with a few crucial points. !stly, it's no coincidence that people refuse to accept their own responsibility by pretending it's the fault of fossil fuel extremists.
That's more often than not a lazy, convenient excuse. And no, I'm *not* per se blaming people living in rural areas.

2ndly, there's much more GHG/environmentally harmful than mobility, and people are 100% responsible for these lifestyle choices, e.g. compare SK's meat consumption in the 1960s vs today.

@hongminhee If it is true what I read days ago, that the tiny percentage of billionaires flights accounts for 50% of planes emissions, it is so clear who should fly less. And why they won't.

For ne, the question is how many externalities am I willing to impose on future generations. What share of the worlds CO2 emissions am I willing to be personally responsible for due to my decisions?

What proportion of the planets non-renewable resources am I willing to consume? How many earths would it take to maintain my lifestyle, and who pays the consequences - my grandkids in 50 years, or the global south?

Long distance travel is a choice. No other activity by a single person emits a tonne of CO2 in a day.

My great-grandparents immigrated to another continent and never saw their families or home towns again. Just because ecologically expensive conveniences have been normalized is no reason to ignore the consequences.

1% of people in the world are responsible for half of aviation emissions. Lots of mastodon users in that group, the 10% in wealthy nations.
https://www.transportenvironment.org/articles/1-super-emitters-responsible-over-50-aviation-emissions