Mastodawn

nasd1066 1d ago

They pay $34 for burgers. Should their fire department service be free? Opening a new fire department in one of NYC's richest neighborhoods has some of America's pettiest journalists asking silly questions in headlines again.🤡

The article acknowledges the fire department analogy, then blows past it.🤷🏿‍♂️

The solve for "Sometimes when a service like free childcare is available to all, marginalized communities get squeezed out," is "Address that racism."

It's not "Therefore waste incredible amounts of time and money trying to means test something that society should just make available to all.🤡"

Brian David 2d ago

@mekkaokereke At this point I honestly find it hilarious how much the NYT hates Mamdani. Every one of these headlines uses the stupidest imaginable pretzel logic trying to spin an obvious good into something problematic.

Paraendroid 2d ago

@mekkaokereke
It's the same everywhere. WTF.

@ectopod @mekkaokereke
nypost 🤝 nytimes
irrational mamdani hate

Woozle Hypertwin 2d ago

@mekkaokereke The "but then rich people get more of it" argument consistently feels like concern-trolling designed to provide an excuse to clamp down on means-testing, which of course makes the problem worse because rich people always have ways to get around bureaucratic obstacles.

(cf. buying a second house in another school-zone so you don't have to send your kids to the "bad" (underfunded) school.)

Wendroid 🇺🇦2d ago

@woozle @mekkaokereke Espesh since rich people always get more of everything anyway, so wtf? Let it go. 👀

Woozle Hypertwin 2d ago

And, like, they should be paying more than enough taxes to cover the costs of their usage of any public service many times over -- how else to make the budget work when we have such extreme inequality? So sure, they should get the benefits of it too.

Wendroid 🇺🇦2d ago

@woozle @mekkaokereke Their attitude is always, why should the poors get something they don’t pay for? In truth the lower & working classes pay most of the taxes.

Woozle Hypertwin 2d ago

I just wanna smack anyone who makes that argument in all seriousness.

Like omg people, do you want a civilization or not??? 😡

Fishercat 2d ago

I agree that the solve for marginalized communities getting squeezed out of public goods is to address that racism. I also think there are ways to put marginalized communities at the head of the line. Because there will be a line.

It looks like they selected the neighborhoods where the first few childcare slots are going in based on child poverty levels and lack of childcare access. That seems exactly right to me. If there are some wealthy parents in that net, fine. Their kids' buddies won't be.

DB Schwein 2d ago

@Fishercat @mekkaokereke

Yes, this.

What part of "universal" does the NYT not understand?

AccordionBruce 2d ago

@deirdrebeth @Fishercat @mekkaokereke
The 2,000 Billionaires should be the first people to get free tampons

And then everybody else on earth who needs them

It’s not hard to see how means-testing is an excuse to not give thing to the poor

DB Schwein 2d ago

@AccordionBruce @Fishercat @mekkaokereke

That's exactly the opposite of what I was saying, and agreeing with.

Wendroid 🇺🇦2d ago

@deirdrebeth @Fishercat @mekkaokereke That poor kids might get something that rich kids get.

@Fishercat
Might do the wealthy kids some good seeing how the rest of the city lives and becoming friends with kids from other social circles. :)
@mekkaokereke

Fishercat 10h ago

@Landa @mekkaokereke Yeah, that was part of what I meant when I said that. I was also thinking about how many of the friends of young parents end up being the parents of their kids' friends.

Captain Superlative 2d ago

In other news, the word ‘universal’ means… universal.

Ben Lings 2d ago

@mekkaokereke 💯 The UK’s attempts to make child-related benefits income-dependent (see https://archive.ph/2026.03.25-225320/https://www.ft.com/content/e8f10ba1-e555-45c9-8c46-8ef77aa38854) have lead to huge distortions in people’s behaviour, where people are reducing hours to avoid being worse off due to a pay rise. Much better to not tax having children.

@mekkaokereke one of the core lessons of public health is that bureaucracy is _expensive_. The entire “Who should pay what!?” Exercise slows the systems down and costs a ton of money and basically all it produces is spreadsheets that cruel selfish people use to be cruel and selfish, and that crowd can’t wrap their heads around the fact that the other thing that’s great about public services being public services is that it’s cheaper.

Paul_IPv6 2d ago

@mhoye @mekkaokereke

all sorts of services. education, food programs, health, public transportation, postal services.

they are public goods. they don't need to "make a profit". any decently run program won't have enough fraud to make it worth charging money and tracking the use. what they will save in costs and result in overall improvement in quality of life for all will more than make them worth it.

problem is, as soon as you say anything like that (or universal health care, UBI, etc.) there are screams of "that's communism" (no it isn't) or "socialism" (not exactly). capitalism (which we don't really have either) is a sacred cow. no one dares to criticize capitalism.

sigh...

CrazyDogLadySezPEACE 1d ago

@mhoye @mekkaokereke 💯

Lorraine Lee 1d ago

@mhoye @mekkaokereke The efficiency experts can't conceive of themselves as a cost center.

Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag ⛈ 🐸2d ago

@mekkaokereke
When school lunch programs throw out the "who deserves to get free lunches?" and just provide for every child, the entire program is cheaper due to the lack of an enforcement layer, all children get fed, and children learn more and pay attention better.

Being overly concerned that someone might get something they don't "deserve" usually ends up screwing over the ones who need help most.

We're supposed to "promote the general welfare" of the public - not gate-keep who gets help.

Raymond Russell 2d ago

@realtegan @mekkaokereke
My pet hate.
When you start to "means test" something that really should be universal the means test itself costs money to administer and you create a barrier to some of those who should be benefiting but may not be able to navigate the red tape required for many many reasons.

Nicolai von Neudeck 2d ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke I used to make software for calculation of the distribution of social welfare (we were actually hard limited in how much we could give, because we were the student government redistributing money between students, so it was justified in my opinion) and oh dear is it not free to figure out if someone should get something if you calculate how rich or poor they are

Raymond Russell 2d ago

@nicolai
classic paradox in the UK welfare system is that right leaning people will complain about fraud in the system. Its true that there is fraud BUT there is 10 times (at least) in unclaimed benefits because the system is so difficult to navigate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yv0e9yjexo

Millions missing out on benefits and government support, analysis suggests

A report from Policy in Practice says awareness, complexity and stigma are the main barriers stopping people claiming.

BBC News

Eric Lawton 2d ago

💯
And we already have the right machinery to recover the money from those who don't need it: it's called the tax system. Fox that instead of introducing program-by-program assessments.

@realtegan @mekkaokereke @bonaventuresoft

Raymond Russell 2d ago

@EricLawton @realtegan @mekkaokereke @bonaventuresoft

Absolutely, if you tax those who can afford it then there should no complaints about them getting 'free' stuff as they are getting out from a system that they have paid the most into.

craignicol 17h ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke in Scotland we used to means test prescriptions. It turned out that the money saved couldn't possibly justify the cost of administration (mainly because people on many prescriptions are highly likely to be unable to work) so they just made them free for everyone.

That's how most benefits should work. Although I do have some sympathy for the idea the UK has where everyone gets child benefit but higher rate taxpayers who get it pay more tax.

Raymond Russell 17h ago

@craignicol @realtegan @mekkaokereke

Yup I have benefited from free prescriptions in Scotland.

Another side effect of free prescription is better compliance with taking medication.
When you need to fork out a tenner per item there is the temptation to not spend the money. This leads to further cost for the state down the line if people are not properly recovering from illness.

There are always unintended consequences of these things.

Free meals means better nutrition even for "rich kids".

craignicol 17h ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke yes, I'm sure there was a study that connected free prescriptions to lower attendance at hospital because people were taking their medicines

craignicol 17h ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke I used to work with someone who did modelling to help NHS trusts in England to save money and the biggest thing they could do (it wasn't even close) was to keep people out of A&E. If you invest in prevention, it keeps people away from the expensive choke points.

I'm sure the same is true for other benefits. Keeping families housed and fed, assisted support to enter the workplace, etc. Keeping them away from courts and mental health services.

craignicol 17h ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke in IT we call it "shifting left" - fix the problem as close to the source as possible where it's cheaper and causes the last damage.

Raymond Russell 17h ago

@craignicol @realtegan @mekkaokereke

Classic penny pinching creating more cost that it saves.

How much damage are pot holes doing to vehicles vs. the cost to maintain the roads at minimum standard?

craignicol 16h ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke councils generally don't pay for car repairs though. At least with prescriptions and A&E the NHS is responsible for the entire budget so it's easier to see

Raymond Russell 16h ago

@craignicol @realtegan @mekkaokereke
But the folk who's vehicles get damaged pay council tax, road tax and general taxation which all contributes the council budgets. ;-)

craignicol 15h ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke that's the bigger picture, but the councils see that money whether or not the car gets damaged, and very few councils run their own buses to see the costs directly

Alex@rtnVFRmedia Suffolk UK 14h ago

@craignicol @raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke

Ipswich and Reading do run their own bus services, and even they are struggling with fixing potholes.

Also relatively affluent South Oxfordshire is struggling to maintain the roads (I was in all these areas just last weekend)

Its now a national crisis, I suspect made worse by 30 years of privatisation / outsourcing so there's a genuine shortage of "boots on the ground" to do the work across whole of England (I don't know if other UK countries are any better)

craignicol 14h ago

@vfrmedia @raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke I can confirm that potholes are also a problem in Scotland. Paying shareholders instead of workers by outsourcing essential work is definitely a factor everywhere

@raymierussell @craignicol @realtegan @mekkaokereke "we'd rather spend the free prescription money on denying prescriptions to 'undeserving' people" is the perfect encapsulation of the english political system

craignicol 14h ago

@ASprinkleofSage @raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke "undeserving people" is the root of so much poison in politics. Many USA historians would rightfully point to the Scottish Presbyterian work ethic for their roots, but the justification of colonization (and the USA "manifest destiny") feeds into that too

Raymond Russell 14h ago

@craignicol
Funny how the "undeserving" doesn't include them or their ain folk.

craignicol 14h ago

@raymierussell "I'm rich so of course I'm deserving"

Forgetting that every great fortune came from a great crime

craignicol 15h ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke 2 big advantages of the means testing by increased tax approach:

1. The people who have to fill out the red tape are likely already doing it - it's 1 additional question in the tax return, and there's no stigma attached to earning more money.

2. By basing it on income tax, it can be progressive and slowly roll from 100% to 0% as your income increases rather than a hard stop which means that for many people getting a job means less money in their pocket

craignicol 15h ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke 2 big advantages of the means testing by increased tax approach:

1. The people who have to fill out the red tape are likely already doing it - it's 1 additional question in the tax return, and there's no stigma attached to earning more money.

2. By basing it on income tax, it can be progressive and slowly roll from 100% to 0% as your income increases rather than a hard stop which means that for many people getting a job means less money in their pocket

серафими многоꙮчитїи 17h ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke every time I see a queue at the ticket barriers of a train station... "How much are we paying to install and maintain obstacles to using public transport?"

@realtegan @mekkaokereke Sigh. I really hate the mindset of “what if someone undeserving benefits.”

So what? Especially when it involves children.

Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag ⛈ 🐸2d ago

@CStamp @mekkaokereke
Exactly.

And by giving everyone a free lunch and breakfast, it removes the stigma of "being too poor" to pay for lunch. That removes a tiny portion of the humiliation that comes from living in poverty.

Then there's the families who cannot figure out how to apply for the free lunch program - or don't have time because the parent(s) work extra jobs. Those children don't go hungry if every child is fed.

We need to stop gate-keeping who needs help, and just help people.

@realtegan @mekkaokereke If the US has trillions of $ to bomb children in other nations, they certainly have $ to feed its own kids. :(

Kids are the most importantly resource of any country.

Stephen Dioxide

@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke
“Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.”
― Adam Smith

"The primary function of government is to protect the minority of the opulent from the majority of the poor."
- James Madison

@Steve @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke

And at least Madison thought this was a feature rather than a bug. In fact Madison's obsessive worry that in a democracy the majority of the poor might vote in laws that would protect them from capitalist predation, which after all is how he and his founding buddies made their dough, is why we have a republic rather than a democracy. He lays it all out in the open in Federalist 10.

https://billofrightsinstitute.org/primary-sources/federalist-no-10/

Federalist No. 10 by James Madison | Majority Rule v Minority Rights

Federalist No.10 written by James Madison defended the form of republican government proposed by the Constitution.

National Leader in Civic Education Resources | Bill of Rights Institute

Philip Mallegol-Hansen 2d ago

@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke Is it even *possible* for anyone (a child in particular) to be undeserving?

Seems like a pretty vital assumption that the answer is yes, but I’m not convinced.

Yenn dc ☂️2d ago

I *might* be willing to concede that people who can afford to (and do) put effort into keeping others from eating are [themselves undeserving].

That's about it tho.

MikeStok 2d ago

@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke if we’re going to give billionaires and corporations tax breaks then feeding kids without means testing seems like small change.

Ken Milmore 2d ago

@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke "Deserves got nothing to do with it"

Greg Bell 2d ago

@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke also, means testing is expensive, hard, and sucks. The most cost-effective way to help everyone who deserves it, is to help everyone.

George B 2d ago

@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke

Most American thing is making 100 people suffer to avoid 1 freeloader.

@gbargoud But what if the wrong children get to eat? @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke

Bruce Mirken 2d ago

@Thad @gbargoud @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke This whole discussion is so silly because any perceived problem is easily solved in 2 simple steps: 1) Feed ALL the kids. 2) Tax the rich so they pay their fair share of the program's total cost. Was that hard?

Bruce Mirken 2d ago

@Thad @gbargoud @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke And of course, the same principle applies to healthcare, child care, etc., etc. Not complicated with 10 seconds of thought.