Matt Palmer
Chris PetrilliThem: if you set aside all the ethical concerns…
Me: this is what evil is. This is how evil talks.
gloriouscowmy friend that is most people at the grocery store
Jargoggles
Dec [{(
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Azuaron@gloriouscow @petrillic My friend, that's not an argument against what they said.
who's arguing
Roadskater, Ph.D.@gloriouscow @petrillic This is the competition for slots in the grocery store parking lot.
Sam@petrillic sounds like a conversation starter at fellowship hour after church
@0f4d0335 is that before or after I spontaneously combust for setting fot in a church? :)
@petrillic i think that doesn't happen only in episcopalian churches
The Three Fingers@petrillic evil is always a bullshit concept. anyone who uses words like that has serious mental problems.
Violet MadderHow about torture, rape, or double-tap bombing hospitals?
If that isn't evil what the fuck is it?
@violetmadder @petrillic it's torture, rape, and bombing hospitals, obviously.
benji_w@3Fingers @violetmadder @petrillic sounds pretty evil to me. I'm comfortable making a value judgement on those particular things and calling them evil.
Simply describing these acts and declining to judge whether it's good, bad, or extremely bad strikes me as a very impoverished approach to human relationships.
@benji_w @violetmadder @petrillic no, it doesn't. you're completely evading the point, being intentionally obtuse. nothing sounds evil to anyone. that's not possible. what's happening is, you're imagining that there is a concept we call "evil" which can be used to describe things you don't like.
it's not "declining to judge", it's an acknowledgement that the concept of a good/evil judgment is fundamentally illogical, and built on inherently oppressive frameworks.
@3Fingers @violetmadder @petrillic ...No, I've checked. It definitely sounds evil to me.
I'm comfortable with a value system that deems torture to be bad enough that I'll call it evil.
I don't need that to be rooted in an absolute view of the universe, I don't even need a more sophisticated use of the word 'evil' than 'really really bad' when it comes down to it.
Additionally, when someone posts "Torture is an evil thing!",
and instead of saying "I agree, although I wouldn't call it evil",
instead you say "You're mentally ill for calling it evil!",
you're either trolling or seriously missing the forest for the trees.
@benji_w @violetmadder @petrillic all of that is wrong. you do need it to be objective and universal to see it as "evil" because that's what defines morality. subjective values are preferences. objective imperatives represent morality. and no, since evil doesn't exist, you don't see those things as evil. you're deceptively and manipulatively using the word "evil" to coerce people into behaving in ways that conform to your preferences. you're probably inclined to respond to this by saying you're fine with coercing people to not torture or rape other people, but that would be simply missing--and proving--my point.
why would i say "i agree" with someone saying something is evil, when that's exactly the sort of rhetoric i want to abolish..? morality absolutely is a mental illness.
@3Fingers @violetmadder @petrillic *checks pockets*
No, definitely still think it's evil.
Also took some time to read more about intersubjectivity as a basis for morality rather than referring to a deontological or other objective system, which was interesting.
...I didn't say you should say that you agree with someone saying something is evil, I merely suggested you treat it as shorthand for "Bad", agree with that, and then if and only if someone wants to have a completely separate conversation about the semantics of the word evil and it's relationship to objective morality.
Rather than straight up calling someone who's objecting to Bad Things as mentally deranged.
@benji_w @violetmadder @petrillic no, you don't think it's evil.
funny you should specifically mention intersubjectivity, i was thinking the past few days that i should make something responding to Mackie's clarifications at the start of Inventing Right And Wrong, because they give entirely too much space for the acceptance of an intersubjective "bad" as a standard interpretation of "evil"...
in some areas, i agree with Mackie, like the delineation between hypothetical and categorical imperatives, and in the hypothetical sense, sure, something can be "bad" in the (almost aristotelean) sense that "this does a bad job of serving this purpose", and if the implied purpose is simply your own happiness, then something is subjectively "bad", to you, in the hypothetical imperative sense. but often "bad" and "evil" are simply synonyms, and i'm saying "bad" in the categorical imperative sense of the word is nonsense.
the problem with the post is that it uses moralism. it's rooted in moralism. it's all ABOUT moralism. there's nothing to say about it, other than point out the fact that it's nonsense.
i'm going to sleep and won't be checking back for a while, so i want to say this first.
it's absolutely crucial for everyone to understand that morality is entirely a product of oppression, and it does nothing except oppress marginalized people.
no one needs to convince others to oppose things that are actually harmful. describing something as torture is sufficient to make someone angry that it's happening. the purpose of morality is to make people angry about things that AREN'T harmful, and justify violence towards people who aren't a threat: the satanic panic of the 80s/90s. honor killings in the middle east. gender-variant american prisoners being forced off HRT right now. etc.
people oppose things that hurt them and their loved ones naturally. morality is a tool used to brainwash people into bigotry.
@3Fingers @violetmadder @petrillic Putting it bluntly:
If someone calls something evil, and that maps directly to something that you agree is a bad thing that should be violently and angrily opposed,
and your first and initial response it to completely ignore the thing that they're rightly angry about, and instead veer into a completely abstract conversation about the correct use of the word Evil,
you're going to Fail Hard at communications and then wonder why people seem to always be angry at you.
(...especially if you're a spectacularly pedantic, condescending, trollish jerk about it)
@benji_w @violetmadder @petrillic it's not abstract. morality is killing us. we need--NEED--to abolish morality. it's absolutely necessary for people to stop thinking in terms of good and evil.
uname -a@3Fingers @violetmadder @petrillic I can see that you will continue to fail hard at communicating. Enjoy your dopamine from constantly picking fights on the internet.
@benji_w @violetmadder @petrillic no, i didn't fail at communicating at all. you're just an asshole. and don't accuse me of keeping my fight-picking on the internet.
@3Fingers @violetmadder @petrillic ...What you're communicating quite clearly to me is that you're a condescending jerk who likes physical as well as rhetorical violence, so you're either meaning to convey just that, or you're doing something wrong with the whole Speaking To Humans thing.
Either way, I don't think you're likely to get far with your crusade against the concepts of good and evil.
Either way, I don't think you're likely to get far with your crusade against the concepts of good and evil.
@benji_w @violetmadder @petrillic there is no such thing as "rhetorical violence", that's just stupid. if people dismiss the things i say because they're offended by my tone, that means they're stupid and wouldn't understand anything anyway.
@3Fingers @violetmadder @petrillic I'm beginning to be swayed by your force of personality and clearly articulated rational arguments.
Could you elaborate on not keeping your fighting on the internet?
I wish to begin swooning at your towering physical, not merely intellectual, heights.
Could you elaborate on not keeping your fighting on the internet?
I wish to begin swooning at your towering physical, not merely intellectual, heights.
@benji_w @violetmadder @petrillic yeah, i fight people a lot. thought that was pretty clear. try to keep up.
@3Fingers @violetmadder @petrillic Finally, someone swoon-worthy. I shall commence... Wait, I need to double-check.
Do only a few people "Get You"?
In particular, I need someone with an edgy sense of comedy.
Do only a few people "Get You"?
In particular, I need someone with an edgy sense of comedy.
@benji_w @violetmadder @petrillic you'd have to not be an idiot to "get me". no chance of you pulling that off.
@3Fingers @violetmadder @petrillic I am even more humbled by your grace and poise, poetry even!
My swooning shall commence very soon.
Do you have a recommendation for the kind of swooning cusion I should adopt?
I'm partial to the one with Roses. They remind me of my dear departed Aunt Uncle, who I adored so. But I will take your recommendation, if you would be so kind?
@violetmadder @petrillic and, it needs to be said - this is such an annoyingly lazy, unsophisticated, ridiculous, cliché response. for hundreds of years (at least), people have been denying the existence of moral truths, and putting forward still-undefeated arguments refuting moralism (Hume's Guillotine, Error Theory, Stirner's observation that religious morality is nothing but the subjective preferences of a being revered as a god, etc.), and every time the nonsensical nature of moralism is brought up, moralists simply fall back on the tired old refrain of pointing to cruelty and calling it evil, insisting "there are things i don't like, therefore evil must exist!"
CyIt's what the news wants you to care about, so you don't focus on improving the life of yourself and people around you, and remain a helpless little obedient worker drone.
CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]
CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]
Why on earth would caring about something stop me from taking action to stop it?
Can you take action to stop it? If not, then why care about it?
CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]
CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]
Damn right we can do something.
The belief we can't is what keeps us in worker-droning despair.
Well I'm sitting at my computer right now. It's a sunny day outside. I can go dig up dandelions, or work on the shopping list. What am I supposed to do about all this torture, rape, or hospital bombing again?
CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]
CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]
Let the dandelions grow and do some permaculture.
Pick whatever tools you can reach in the wide range of options in mutual aid, direct action, labor organizing, community defense, alternative economies, and/or disaster preparedness. Learn to trace the chains of cause and effect that lead from small accomplishments to bigger changes. Keep reminding the people around you that such achievements matter, and that all this heinous crap is in fact intolerably heinous.
The more resilient your community is, the better you can stand up for yourself and the harder you are to silence or exploit.
I'd like to let them grow, but my mother hates weeds, so I try to humor her a bit. I'm much more worried about the blackberries and the buttercup, and the english ivy, and the "bullet seed" and the arum, and the columbine, and the oregano, and the mint.
There isn't any mutual aid groups in this neighborhood. The WFWA does some labor organizing, but not much these days, and I'm not employed so I have no one to organize against. Also they're kinda culty. I'd love alternate economies, like if people around here had a buyer's club or something. Really the biggest issue is there's no shared space to plan all this. Can't use a church, or they'll lose their tax exempt status. That's kind of why I joke about opening a bar, when I don't drink a lick of alcohol.
Anyway I am looking for solutions, but I'm not going to care about what I must do with these hypothetical solutions, until I have them. I can only care so much, and wasting it on unactionable bullshit is not exactly a productive use of my fucks to give.
CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]
There isn't any mutual aid groups in this neighborhood. The WFWA does some labor organizing, but not much these days, and I'm not employed so I have no one to organize against. Also they're kinda culty. I'd love alternate economies, like if people around here had a buyer's club or something. Really the biggest issue is there's no shared space to plan all this. Can't use a church, or they'll lose their tax exempt status. That's kind of why I joke about opening a bar, when I don't drink a lick of alcohol.
Anyway I am looking for solutions, but I'm not going to care about what I must do with these hypothetical solutions, until I have them. I can only care so much, and wasting it on unactionable bullshit is not exactly a productive use of my fucks to give.
CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]
@cy @petrillic @violetmadder idk where you live, but there are people around the world taking action against the suppliers of the IDF to hinder their ability to continue doing those exact things. i know of groups across the U.K. and U.S. working on that using various tactics right now, in the "Eject Elbit" campaign. just one thought that immediately came to mind.
If I ever find anyone who's doing something about "eject elbit" I'll see how I can help. I don't think standing in front of a CapitalOne and yelling at them will do much to stop weapon sales, though.
CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]
CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]
@cy @petrillic @violetmadder it does. i've personally seen people take money out of that bank because of protests. people leaving the bank pressures them to stop investing in companies that support genocide. in NYC the DBNY group organized actions for a year and a half, and got the Brooklyn Navy Yard to cancel Easy Arial's contract. there's been a lot of sabotage of Elbit factories and warehouses across Europe, with the Ulm 5, for instance. i think there was a recent action in Canada too. lots of stuff going on, lots of it having real tangible effects.
I only have like $500 and it's in a credit union, but OK that's great. Still not going to care about it until I can (not blurt out on public social media that I will) sabatoge a factory or something.
CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]
CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]
@cy @petrillic @violetmadder amount of money isn't relevant, i was responding to the effectiveness of noise demos, and acknowledging that people are doing other stuff too.
none of this is relevant to the topic of moralism tho, you popped in and started talking about apathy, idk why...
Bullshit is stuff that's technically true, but misleads you to trick you. Like for instance torture, rape, and hospital bombings. They're happening, but it's bullshit. You can even go one cuil further, and realize that you're getting mad about torture, rape, and hospital bombings, as they define it, letting them get you mad for even more bullshit reasons. Caring about all this stuff and some of it's not even bad, when you could be caring about something less glamorous like loneliness, or landlords, and actually get some good done.
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CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]
@cy @petrillic @violetmadder that's not how i define bullshit, it doesn't apply here, and it has nothing to do with morality.
i was saying that it's objectively true that all moral statements are false. not "technically true", just fundamentally illogical. and idk what you mean about calling those things "bullshit"...i think you're just spewing bullshit.
Man, I'm not even disagreeing with you. Why you gotta be hatin?
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CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]
@cy @3Fingers @petrillic @violetmadder Gather firearms. Rally your neighborhood. Peace isnt free, it's earned
I can't afford firearms, but yeah... don't know my neighbors much. We sure don't meet together to talk about what to do as a community. Trying to fix that, somehow...
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CC: @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]
Cassandrich@3Fingers @petrillic Always trust people who describe someone they disagree with as "has serious mental problems"... 🙄
@dalias @petrillic never trust anyone. trust has no place in a debate. beyond that, this response is nothing but an ad hominem.
@3Fingers @petrillic I'm not debating you I'm telling you off for being a prick who equates mental health problems with other things you don't like.