Advanced Dungeons and Dragons was the first RPG Heartbreaker.

Fight me.

#TTRPG #ADND #OSR #Heartbreaker #HeartbreakerRpg

@deinol As I understand the Forge people, they meant it as a slander against games that were too complex to learn in one session or required "math" (anything more than 1-digit addition), and wouldn't make a lot of money or displace D&D.

But AD&D made a stupendous amount of money, funnelled all of it to Gary instead of Dave until the lawsuit, displaced Basic D&D by about 25-50% until they pretty much killed Basic for AD&D 2E. Remained too hard for Forgeites to learn.
#ttrpg #dnd

@mdhughes @deinol That's rather a fundamental misunderstanding of the original intent behind the term. It wasn't the math, it was the misdirected creativity that made the original FHBs as tragic as they were compelling. Go read the original essay: https://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/9/

@E_T_Smith @deinol
> It fascinates me how far some of these go, especially in combination with the bizarre math necessary to derive the secondary attributes. <

I played semi-regularly with several Forgeites in Seattle, math-phobia was *endemic* among them. Hand-holding them thru even middle-complexity systems was like teaching kindergarten.

"Part Four: Business and marketing" is exactly what I said: The idea these wouldn't compete! Well, many did, they're still here & thriving.
#ttrpg #dnd

@mdhughes @E_T_Smith

I must admit it had been a long time since I looked at the article, so it distilled into my head as “passionate project with good ideas but a disorganized mess and also some mediocre ideas“.

@deinol “passionate project with good ideas but a disorganized mess and also some mediocre ideas.“

Many FHBs weren't bad from a design perspective, some were even comparable to professional games. I feel the main flaw Edwards was trying highlight in the essay was one of marketing -- independent designers who didn't know any other model of publication but AD&D, so that's what they emulated (at great expense) ... which was a ludicrous thing to do at a time when AD&D was dominant.

@deinol Admittedly, FHBs as Edwards presented them were the result of pre-internet circumstances that faded out some time ago (cheap digital publishing and the dawn of the OGL in particular being the major sea changes). So the venacular meaning of "Fantasy Heartbreaker" has degraded in actual use over the years -- I've heard kids using it to broadly mean "something that's like D&D, but isn't," including Shadowdark and Pathfinder.